Dog snapped at DD

[despondentatwork]

Background....We have 2 dogs. Collie is 5yo. She has snapped at the Vet in the past & at me & at our DS. She is quite a high anxiety, over active Collie. I've always been careful & wary of her TBH, especially around any children & I don't generally leave her with the children unsupervised. This morning I had just walked out of the room, when this happened. She had been sniffing around her bed cover which I had washed after bathing her last night. DD says she nudged her away from it (she didn't know what the bedcover was, she thought it was a coat of mine). The dog growled at DD, who immediately realised dog was unhappy. So she says she put her hand out for the dog to lick, and 'apologise' & the dog snapped at her hand. DD is devastated. She LOVES this dog; had been afraid of dogs when she was younger, but has a really close relationship with her. She was v v frightened & could hardly speak for sobbing. She keeps going over the incident & thinks she's done something wrong. I have explained that the dog probably found her actions threatening & she understands. I am very concerned. DD will be wary now, I have no doubt, but DS is younger & just doesn't have the understanding to be wary of the dog (or any dog, really). The dog snapped at him once, when he was lifting a toy from under her high bed to play with her. We think the dog thought he was taking the toy away. We have explained about toys, food bowl etc. But I am really concerned that there may be other objects she 'guards', or situations the children will not be aware are sensitive to the dog. We have lots of neices & nephews who come to play. With the best will in the world, I hold my hands up & say that I can't supervise all of them & the dog all of the time. I don't think it's a risk I want to take-I am very worried that someday the dog will bite. Any advice/input from anyone who's been in this position??

Oh dear, I'm so sorry to read this, you must be so worried. How old are the children?

Is there a local dog trainer who would be able to advise?

You could muzzle train her and then she wears a muzzle at all times when around the children. It’s too much of a risk imo.
I think it’s really important to help your DD understand that she did nothing wrong.

I have had two who were reactive and guarded and snapped/bit.

My children knew they never went near their beds or bowls and they were fed at set times in set places. The children knew how to read them so also knew to leave them alone if they looked stressed or were guarding.

They were kept away from any visitors using a cage, room or even the car - whatever was available in the situation.

The kids spent plenty of time with them and walked and trained them. It wa she we what you see in some houses where the kids are in the dog bed but I don’t like seeing kids all over dogs.

My grandparents had a dog like this, very possessive of its belongings and defensive. It ended up biting my sister in the face, leading to scarring on her eyeball. Horrible.

I would agree that muzzling is your only option, as the dog in question had also been trained. Sorry OP. Not trying to freak you out, just giving worst case scenario.

I agree with muzzling, whilst you continue training. I’m a fosterer and I generally hate how easily people suggest Rehoming, but I don’t think I could live happily with a dog who was a risk to my children

A tricky one. Many collies snap, snarl, lip curl, growl but never bite. Your dog had the opportunity but choose not to bite but to warn. SO it follows that if the dog is not put in that position again the dog will not react.

However the threshold may be hard to live with and you obviously have a stressed dog. Time to get the professionals in and let them assess the situation. Speak to a qualified behaviourist with collie experience to discuss the way forward.

No judgement intended here, are you able to give a collie what it needs? They're not house pets.

It's good your DD understands why the dog was upset and won't do it again, but it doesn't sound like your dog wants to be around normal family life. You could go the training route and see how successful it is, or find a different home for the dog. Personally I don't agree with a dog having to be permanently muzzled in its own home, it doesn't fix anything.

I don’t agree with permanent muzzling, it’s no way for the dog to live.
I personally would be looking to re-home it to somewhere that knows it’s history, and where the dog can live happily.
You all deserve to be relaxed and happy, you the kids and the dog.

Collies can be a bit grumpy in my experience, mine certainly likes his own company, he wasn't brought up around young children. He is though highly protective of us and also extended family members including small children, have to watch him at the park because he treats them like sheep to be guarded so other child going up to them is likely to be barked or snarled at (easily solved with a lead!) He's certainly snapped and snarled when I've made him move eg I'm cleaning but never bites.

I personally wouldn't have a house collie (I don't mean working dogs living outside) with under 8's or so myself. And you need to exercise their minds.

Many collies snap, snarl, lip curl, growl but never bite

As a lifelong collie owner, I have never come across a single one that does. Perhaps that is because their needs are met and they are properly trained and handled?

No judgement intended here, are you able to give a collie what it needs? They're not house pets.
This
Collie can make wonderful family members, but they are not dogs that settle around your preferred family life - you have to meet their needs. It always worries me when someone describes a collie as "over active". Being over active is nigh on an impossibility for a collie. They are herding dogs and bred to run for many miles a day, and have been bred so for centuries. And they do all that running whilst problem solving mentally. In my experience no collie is over active - just under exercised and not mentally stimulated enough.

@Moondust001

Many collies snap, snarl, lip curl, growl but never bite

As a lifelong collie owner, I have never come across a single one that does. Perhaps that is because their needs are met and they are properly trained and handled?

No judgement intended here, are you able to give a collie what it needs? They're not house pets.
This
Collie can make wonderful family members, but they are not dogs that settle around your preferred family life - you have to meet their needs. It always worries me when someone describes a collie as "over active". Being over active is nigh on an impossibility for a collie. They are herding dogs and bred to run for many miles a day, and have been bred so for centuries. And they do all that running whilst problem solving mentally. In my experience no collie is over active - just under exercised and not mentally stimulated enough.

Ha I was waiting for this comment . I foster a lot of collies usually with aggression and bite history. I have 3 fosters here at the moment so I do tend to see the collies with "issues" and stand by what I said collies will clearly communicate their mood and as I also said if the collies are not put in the situation they will not react.

They are not breed to run many miles a day,they are breed to make decisions and act on their own initiative and stop movement. An over exercised collie will give you loads more issues than a collie that is mentally stimulated.

Thx everyone...I constantly feel guilty that she isn't given enough mental stimulation TBH. I have read books, I have watched videos, but time to understand it all & learn & practice is my issue. She spends most of her time outside-partly due to me knowing I can't always supervise. The kids are old enough now to unlock the doors & bring her in, though as they feel sorry for her & love her company. She has acres of space, and does use it. She is walked 3-4 miles most days (9/10 times by me) and is always off lead. We do have a small 'house' dog, they get on well. So she has company. My sisters all have dogs & we often walk them together. She isn't very sociable, definitely prefers her own company. She displays a lot of repetitive behaviours with ball & stick dropping/catching. She is fixated on moving vehicles, the trampoline & gets SUPER excited very easily. I have involved a trainer before, mostly regarding her car fixation & lead walking, but again finding the time to practice practice practice enough for behaviour improvement is my issue. They all love her & she clearly loves them-especially my 6yo son & my eldest who's 15. If we have to rehome her they'll all be devastated, and the DD involved will feel it's her 'fault, she's a sensitive child. DH is away ATM & will be a bit blase about my fears, I think.

Simple things you could do are scatter feed her. (Make sure the other dog can not get the food) Scatter feed her food on the grass close together to start with then spread it over a wider area. If feeding takes at least 20 mins a day that is a great way to get her relaxed but thinking.

I can not recommend scent work enough for active breeds. It is a calm activity and your children can do it with her. It will break the obsessive behaviours and mentally tire her out. Simple thing to start with is to get her to stay whilst your children hide her ball. Make sure she sees where it is to begin with and that start to hide it in harder places. This will knacker her more than ball chasing and should keep things calm.

I would also have times when she is in and is made to relax. Does she have a bed she settles in?

So maybe morning walk, scatter feed on return then put into her bed for a couple of hours sleep. She does need this down time to chill and relax and stop that collie brain from over heating.

Mental stimulation really doesn't have to take up a lot of your time.

Scatter feed her kibble in grass. Use a slow feeder bowl. Put her food into a kong (or similar) and get her to work to get it out. If she spends time outside, you could give her a raw bone to chew on. Buy a snuffle mat and hide her food in there. Put her outside, hide tiny bits of kibble around a room and tell her to "find it".

We do all of those with my beagle and he loves it. If she's not too food motivated, you could also hide her toys, or teach her the names of her toys and get her to bring you the right one etc.

Simple things you could do are scatter feed her. (Make sure the other dog can not get the food) Scatter feed her food on the grass close together to start with then spread it over a wider area. If feeding takes at least 20 mins a day that is a great way to get her relaxed but thinking
I’ve done this with mine before.
She finds and eats a few that are easily found then gets annoyed and bored and stops trying!

@PollyRoulson
Simple thing to start with is to get her to stay whilst your children hide her ball. Make sure she sees where it is to begin with and that start to hide it in harder places. This will knacker her more than ball chasing and should keep things calm
I’ve tried this too!
She takes off like a fucking rocket and if the ball or treat isn’t found within a few seconds she gets angry and starts grumbling and whining.
Even if she does find it after a few goes she gets cross and just wants to eat or play ball - no searching.

Is mine broken?

Collies are not family dogs, they are working dogs

To be content in life they need a job to do. I don't think trying to have one as a family pet is fair at all on the dog.

*Ha I was waiting for this comment smile . I foster a lot of collies usually with aggression and bite history. I have 3 fosters here at the moment so I do tend to see the collies with "issues" and stand by what I said collies will clearly communicate their mood and as I also said if the collies are not put in the situation they will not react.

They are not breed to run many miles a day,they are breed to make decisions and act on their own initiative and stop movement. An over exercised collie will give you loads more issues than a collie that is mentally stimulated.*

That may be your opinion. It doesn't make it true. Average mileage for a working border collie is 10 - 15 miles, and they can keep going all day. They can easily cover far more. That is why trainers advise to limit their exercise somewhat in their first year to allow their muscle strength and tone to develop.

Honestly, it doesn't sound very much like you know what you are talking about.

I don't foster collies. I train them. Working dogs. And have since I was a child. As did my parents although I did not go into farming. Try telling any owner of a working collie that they can't run for miles, or that they might be over-exercising their dog sending it to do its job. They'll laugh in your face.

Honestly I'm not sure this dog should be living with children. As a working breed they aren't always suited to family life.

They're intelligent and active and need firm boundaries, consistent training and a job to do that challenges them and wears them out or they get bored and irritable and snappy. They need hours of exercise and mental stimulation a day.

Honestly I would rehome to someone who has the time and energy to do this and don't get another working breed. Its like lockdown. Some people are thriving. They like the slower pace. They're greyhounds. They're chilled.

Some of us aren't. We're Collies. We aren't meant to be cooped up most of our lives, we want to be out and about, back to work, socialising, doing SOMETHING meaningful and when we can't we're getting stressed out, easily pissed off and ready to kill the next person who suggests a lovely walk and a zoom call.

To the posters saying Border Collies are not good family dogs. This is a pic of my collie who I had from a puppy until he died at 14. I had him before my children and he was amazing with them. I couldn't have wished for a better "family dog". As long as they're well trained and not bored they're fine as a family dog.

Mine was rarely walked for hours a day, just the usual, but he did go out and about with me and was never put outside. He loved playing fetch, hide & seek, finding treats etc.

@despondentatwork imo keeping her alone outside a lot isn't fair on her. Collies do need a quite a lot of exercise but imo the most important thing they need is company. Could you try having her inside more, and rather than leave her alone with the kids, take her with you if you leave a room, at least until you're confident she won't snap or bite?

Mine snapped at a couple of people over the years (their faults for ignoring his signals) but never at my children. Our current dog (cocker spaniel) has snapped at my daughter once and yet they're supposedly an ideal family dog. Almost all dogs will snap if they feel nervous or threatened, I wouldn't necessarily rehome a dog over it unless it happened frequently or they bit.

I couldn't have wished for a better "family dog"
Nor me, mine is a real little nanny dog and has never so much as looked at one of my children funny, let alone growled or snapped.

"Your dog had the opportunity but choose not to bite but to warn."

The growl was the warning.

@MrsAntiSocial

I'd have loved another Border Collie but felt I'd always compare it to my previous one and just didn't think that would be fair as he was honestly perfect. I now just unfavourably compare our Cocker to him instead 😂, he's lovely but certainly not as intelligent!

@NuniaBeeswax
Completely agree, I think unfortunately the op's dd just made a mistake in putting her hand out. She should have just walked away, but even so she only snapped so not particularly aggressive.

@Moondust001

*Ha I was waiting for this comment smile . I foster a lot of collies usually with aggression and bite history. I have 3 fosters here at the moment so I do tend to see the collies with "issues" and stand by what I said collies will clearly communicate their mood and as I also said if the collies are not put in the situation they will not react.

They are not breed to run many miles a day,they are breed to make decisions and act on their own initiative and stop movement. An over exercised collie will give you loads more issues than a collie that is mentally stimulated.*

That may be your opinion. It doesn't make it true. Average mileage for a working border collie is 10 - 15 miles, and they can keep going all day. They can easily cover far more. That is why trainers advise to limit their exercise somewhat in their first year to allow their muscle strength and tone to develop.

Honestly, it doesn't sound very much like you know what you are talking about.

I don't foster collies. I train them. Working dogs. And have since I was a child. As did my parents although I did not go into farming. Try telling any owner of a working collie that they can't run for miles, or that they might be over-exercising their dog sending it to do its job. They'll laugh in your face.

Love this

I have working dogs and my are working sheep dogs and sar dogs. But this is not a thread to quote credentials unless you really want me to?

Yes they will run for miles (until they drop and I did not say otherwise) and I agree that collies do need a lot of exercise in respect to normal dogs. If you search back on all my threads you will see I am constantly sticking up for collies having enough exercise and stimulation.

I mean why have a collie if you dont want to do things with it.

However over stimulation is a major issue in a domestic environment eg ball chasing alll day long and will wind the collie up to a point of a continue adrenalin burst. Scent work, herding games etc will be much more beneficial than a chasing ball walk for example.

Also as you yourself say even if you have walked your collie for 12 hours they will still be up for more so the collie needs brain work to relax it and let it rest not exercise alone.

It has now been recommended NOT to restrict exercise in the early days but as this is modern information you may not be up to speed with it. Yes restrict twisting, turning, jumping etc but exercise builds muscle that in fact protects the joints. Loads of research on it recently from academic and medics.

Where do you work your collies now?

Equally your comments do not really give any advice to the op thread are you just suggesting that she walks them 12 miles a day and situation will be sorted?

@NuniaBeeswax

"Your dog had the opportunity but choose not to bite but to warn."

The growl was the warning.

I think there’s truth in both statements though.

The growl was the first warning. You need to all know to listen to a warning. Move right away.

The snap was the second warning. If the dog had wanted to bite, your DD would have an injury.