Working-line ESS - advice please!

[DoubleTweenQueen]

So, have been looking for a spaniel. Long story short, I have the opportunity of a pup from a long working line. I would want to train and bring them up well, but in the home as a family dog first and foremost. I am researching the general thoughts and requirements and it’s a mixed bag as to the level of intensity and family-friendliness.
I would really appreciate any good knowledgeable advice. Preferably first-hand from owners and perhaps any trainers/gundog trainers. It may be a bit too far of a leap? I can offer long morning rambles with enrichment/retrieving/whistle training, and we have a half acre garden with interesting scents, for exploring, games, training. I don’t want it to be my life’s work, however.
Thanks in advance!

Lets bump this thread for the evening lot.

I have collies and working spaniels and have told my husband to never ever encourage me to get an ESS

These are very general comments and there will always be someone who has a ESS that is the exact opposite however they are not called springers for nothing. Lively, a bit neurotic, can have separation anxiety love to work and need to work.

You will need to map in time to let them use their nose and scenting to be happy dogs, ideally their walks will incorporate this.

They will not be a quiet dog that sleeps in the background

I know both pet and working ESS - I see much more of the pet ones.

Provided you put in the time to train a solid recall and heel (on and off lead) and give them enough exercise, they can make really lovely pets. If you get a more driven one (one that is really excited by scent, birds, bashing through the brambles) you might find that you need to put in more effort to maintain focus on you by doing dummy work or having it search for tennis balls in rough grass.

I'd suggest a couple of things:

1. Check the the pedigree. If it is full of FTCh (field trial champions) perhaps think again, as they are likely to be very amped and driven.
2. Ask the breeder to point out to you the least driven of the litter. Some friends got an ESS who was passed over by everyone who wanted a working dog from the litter and she has been a delightful pet.

I'm not sure how much dog experience you have but gundog classes while the dog is young could be a very good investment.

Well, I am all for working lines usually and working cockers I love.
It’s anecdotal of course, naturally other people will have had the opposite experience, but based on my personal experience of springers, I wouldn’t touch them if you paid me.

Hi - thankyou for your honest replies. I have experience of three ess's - one not trained well and as a result not well behaved and a bit aimless; two utterly devoted and beautifully behaved examples you could walk all day off-lead with always a check back to their master. I think you're right though - success is dependent to a large degree in temperament and character of the individual. It's limited how much you can judge that when they're very young. I think it's a risk, and I don't want to get it wrong - would not be fair to me/family or the dog :(
I've been looking to foster with a view to adopt - it's a very long wait. The potential pup is one from a friend of a friend - seemed like it was meant to be but perhaps a strict and impressive working line is a bit of an over-reach. Hm.

Have you met the parents?
Working or not, if you want that breed and If the parents temperaments you like, I’d be inclined to go for it i think.

I think the parents are a better indication that anything else of how a puppy would probably turn out.

I've not met the parents - some distance away but a viewing will be arrange at a suitable time - still early days. The mum is utterly beautiful, and thoughtful - photo of her in the field very much more focussed and in the zone - in definite working mode. I think I would need to spend a weekend with her to really get a decent idea. If it were just me, I would go for it, but I am also thinking of what my girls would need and I think something a bit more relaxed and cocker-ish would be better. The training and loving discipline I would bring in from day 1, and I have a gundog trainer with puppy classes to adult training levels in mind. Just I won't be able to supply multiple long walks everyday - I need to function as a parent and have an active dog that will be loving and calm at home and with the children. I just have the feeling the balance wouldn't be right.

I have a 3 year old ESS from a working line. We’ve had her since a puppy.

She is amazing on her walks she is crackers but is well trained and recall etc is brilliant. At home she is the most chilled out dog ever - she is crate trained but we now don’t shut the door but she sleeps happily in the kitchen. It’s her safe space - especially if we changing bins she terrified of the black bin bags :) she was the runt of the litter, the smallest one and she still is smaller than the average spaniel. If we home she likes to be with us wherever we are, but we can leave her a couple of hours alone in the kitchen and she happy.

The only issue is on a lead - she pulls like a train and we’ve tried everything!

She’s amazing and I couldn’t imagine my life without her. Her character alone :)

@Todaytomorrow09 Sigh. That's what I hope for. There is no littler one - not a large litter and all doing equally well.
I think I need to talk to the owner and say I can't commit until we see an idea of temperaments. I've already mentioned this and I would hope he would want to be equally cautious to get it right. Thanks everyone x

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman Hello :)
There are quite an impressive number of FT Ch’s in both pedigrees.

I would be very happy to train on the whistle and incorporate retrieving exercises into our excursions - start early and develop - including from water where safe to do so. I am not afraid of mud and wet - which is a good thing. I am a member of a gundog training FB group and a well-supported dog-training group, from where I am learning a great deal of useful pointers.
Seeing this makes me positive rather than not!:-
www.youtube.com/watch?v=al4VQYE6ZZ4

@DoubleTweenQueen, it's good you're happy in mud and wet! You're not on Gundog Training for Novices on FB by any chance? That's a very helpful group.

I've had dogs (not ESS) with FTChs both close-by in the pedigree and a bit further away (any decently-bred gundog is likely to have some FTCh in its pedigree). TBH the one with the nearest FTCh (a parent) is noticeably more amped than the others who were from parents who were practical workers and never trialled.

I do really like springers. I've met one nasty one, who has I think gone that way due to a lack of training and stimulation which has resulted in a stressed and unhappy dog - pulling like a train for 200 yds to the woods and half an hour's free running, and then pulling like a train home again just doesn't cut it. Other than that, they have mostly been very sweet-natured dogs, whether workers or pets. You just need to make sure they learn the basics and have an outlet, and it can be a lot of fun to provide that.

You never know, you might get hooked and find yourself at working tests and training days and God knows what else...

I have a 16 month old Springer with lots of FtCh in his pedigree. He is a lovely, sweet natured dog and has always been perfectly well behaved in the house. He is great with other dogs and people.

However - it was literally only last weekend that we went on our first walk with him where we could relax and enjoy walking! He is our first dog and has been such a handful to train. We are an active, outdoorsy couple, but we haven't been able to enjoy long relaxing walks or running with the dog yet as he is so driven and is so excited and aroused by everything. He still struggles to walk to heel on lead and we have dedicated hundreds and hundreds of hours to training this - we're getting there but it's slow progress.

He is really highly driven and can lose his head when out walking - we avoid wooded walks as he just can't focus and he is hard to control in some environments as his drive to work is so strong.

He is a work in progress, and I'm beginning to realise our training will eventually pay off, but he has had me in tears on many occasions and there have been times when we have wondered if we made the right decision in getting him. We don't have kids and he takes up most of our free time in training, so although he has a lovely personality, unless you really have the time to commit to training over a long period of time (more than a year for us, and still going!), I'm not sure how suitable he'd be for a family. Although friends have Springers with very different, laid-back personalities so I think some of it is luck of the draw!

Food for thought. Thankyou x

I have a 3 year old Springer, my first dog. Yes, he is super excitable but I would not have him any other way. Oflf lead he has great recall but yes, really hard to walk on lead as he pulls. Obsessed with fetching games and balls. At home he is relaxed, puts himself to bed in his crate at about 9ish. He is the most loving, daft sweet dog you can imagine. We love him to bits and his craziness' only adds to his charm. You can tell I am a massive ESS fan

4 yr old springer bitch owner here. We looked for a long time for the right dog and met her parents before she was born. She is from a gun dog breeder and her siblings/relatives mostly go on to work - guns/police etc but some to homes. We had fun with her teenage antics pushing boundaries but then the switch went on and she is the most loyal sensible dog. Very settled and happy to be a lap dog or go for a 10 mile walk. We now foster for Spaniel Aid and our latest young working springer foster is currently fast asleep on the other sofa, he will be a super dog for an adoptive family soon. We are fortunate to be rural and have plenty of land, woods and water - ideal for spaniels.

My family have had working springers for most of my life (currently have labs).

IME drive is a massive spectrum in working dogs, with some breeders actively breeding slightly lower drive dogs as they prefer a good solid steady worker.

If you definitely want working line but aren't actively working or walking absolutely miles every day I'd try and find one of those tbh.
I'd also recommend agility or flyball as it gives their brains a work out - friends rescued a high drive spaniel from a young family who couldn't cope and he's calmed down massively with agility training.

Tbh, I wasn't aware of the distinction between working and show lines and I think quite a few examples of pet springers could be a bit of a mix. The ones I've known am fairly sure were of working heritage. It's really useful to have your input - I'm going to be cautious, see the parents, see the pups, ask lots of questions, be ready to walk away. If that's possible when faced with puppies. I think I will leave the children at home, or I'll have no chance.
DH had a Border Collie he did agility training with - I'm sure we could add some of that in the mix. Need to be thoughtful when sizing up the pups' temperaments, if that's at all possible.

IME drive is a massive spectrum in working dogs, with some breeders actively breeding slightly lower drive dogs as they prefer a good solid steady worker
I really agree with this.
I don’t have a spaniel but my dog is from solid working lines from working farm parents.
Some of the dogs from trialling lines I’ve seen appear to be quite ‘wired’

With most Gundog breeds the working and show lines look so different, in addition to the temperament differences!

Show springers have a rounder head and longer ears

@Swimminginroses

IME drive is a massive spectrum in working dogs, with some breeders actively breeding slightly lower drive dogs as they prefer a good solid steady worker I really agree with this. I don’t have a spaniel but my dog is from solid working lines from working farm parents. Some of the dogs from trialling lines I’ve seen appear to be quite ‘wired’

It's not universal though.

My current two are littermates. Sire had about half his pedigree in red and the dam had about a third. Boy is far higher drive than the girl (she's a damn good worker but works because she wants to please you, whereas he wants to work for himself IYSWIM).

The girl is also the steadier of the two and the one it took the least effort to train.

I have two working sprockers, or at least the line was working but they are family pets. They are utterly barmy. Female has excellent recall unless she’s sniffing something interesting but if I walk on she will follow. She will run to say hello to other dogs and that’s when she goes utterly deaf.

I have a male sprocker who is 14 weeks, didn’t intend to get another dog however the breeder asked if I could take him (same breeder as first but different lineage) because her mum just passed away and she didn’t have time to find him a home. I can already tell he is going to be a lot of hard work. He’s learning quickly but he’s going to be a big dog and I think he’s more springer than cocker. He’s noisy, barely lets my 3 year old get out of the crate in the morning before he’s growling and jumping on her to play. When I making his dinner or breakfast he’s sat barking at me me and growling because I’m going too slow!! He picked up leave it in 10 minutes which was good so I’m just working my way through some basic training before we move on to the serious stuff.

I love him though, he has such an attitude but he also is very loving. He will climb up me with his bully stick, as if to say look mum I’ve got a bully stick. If I’m sat down I end up with a puppy belly on my face and a bully stick in my hair.

Would I get an ESS? No, sprockers enough for me to handle

Oh and I think he would make an excellent gun dog although I suspect his drive is on the high side in terms of pleasing himself rather than me. Female is a good gun dog but she wants to please the human not herself

I would be getting a bitch if at all - hate that word, but there it is

My girl is the light of my life, full of character such a good nature. The only time she gets cross is if she’s feeling hassled by the puppy and she snaps at him finally. Takes her a lot to get worked up though

So, I have met pups and mum - gorgeous temperament is mum. I have been looking at level of health testing - the mum is pra- and fuco-; the dad is fuco-. That's the limit - looking up lineages, pra and fuco- seem to be it, as far as testing goes, however sire's dad has also had hip & elbow scoring and comprehensive gonioscopy testing - all good results. I don't think the lack of further testing is unusual in working lines? The grandfathers have had many litters- no issues are flagged.
Questions - what test results were available to you for your pup's?
Do you think the information I have is enough to go ahead with a level of confidence?
Will see if I can get an opinion from a vet next week :)