Any dog breeders?

[Falcone]

Can I pick your brain? How does it work? Do you have the same Dam having pups continuously or do you have various different dogs and take turns at which one gets pregnant? Do you keep each dam until old age, even when they can't breed anymore? Do you need to inform HMRC each time you sell a pup? Do you do it as a full time source of income or on the side of a job? Do you get home inspections?

Not meaning to be goady but do you ever feel guilty? So many dogs already born who need good homes.
I posted this week about an unscrupulous man breeding... Makes me wonder what makes a scrupulous one any different? All done for money surely?

Why?
Decent breeders don’t have litters very often as they don’t have lots from one bitch and don’t keep loads and loads of dogs.
Full time source of income? Only if they’re puppy farmers.

Sorry OP I have no idea.

But the one thing I would like is for dogs to stop killing babies and young children.

I will be flamed but I don't care anymore.But I suppose it is the fault of the owner as usual. They should be in jail and hopefully are.

Be careful anyway whatever you decide.

Sounds like you want to get into breeding. Please ensure if you do that the owners are up to it for the long term.

Just curious to be honest. I wonder what makes people want to do it.

No I'm not interested in doing it myself, I think the world has enough dogs in shelters as it is without producing more.

A friend breeds gun dogs, it is very much a sideline that subsidies his hobby of competing them and provides prospects for future years.

He does declare it all on his tax return but there is no profit on which to pay tax by the time feed, kennels, and all the competition costs are accounted for.

I would never breed. I don’t know nearly enough to guarantee happy and healthy pups and to find perfect forever homes for them.
The breeders I know love “their” breed deeply. They have a history of owning the parent and grandparent of their current dog or dogs. They breed when they want the next generation to continue their line. They do sell the puppies they don’t keep. But it’s not a money making business. They select homes very very carefully and the money helps to pay the upkeep of their dogs and so goes back into their hobby.
But it’s not for me.

Wolfiefan's experience very much echoes my own.

@yolio

Sorry OP I have no idea.

But the one thing I would like is for dogs to stop killing babies and young children.

I will be flamed but I don't care anymore.But I suppose it is the fault of the owner as usual. They should be in jail and hopefully are.

Be careful anyway whatever you decide.

Sounds like you want to get into breeding. Please ensure if you do that the owners are up to it for the long term.

Maybe start your own thread then rather than randomly derailing this one

Not a breeder but part of my job is to license breeders- which is now the law no matter how many litter you produce.

Each breeder must apply for a license. They have to follow some very specific guidance on accommodation, hygiene, safety, socialisation, paperwork etc
For example someone must be in the premises at all time, puppies must be weighed at birth and regular intervals after that. Strict conditions on shelling facilities, temperature, size of living conditions. There must be a separate exercise area that is not where the dog sleeps. They must be checked and interacted with 4 times a day.
You must have a fire safety plan, you must have an infectious outbreak plan
Etc etc

Bitches must not be bred from before 12months( ideally 18months) or after 8 years old.
There must be at least 12 months from weaning to mating again (to prevent back to back litters)

Puppies must be shown with mum to prospective buyers
You must have a puppy contract.

Each specific license will say how many dogs you can have in the premises.
Most places have mostly bitches with a few dogs.

You can make a living out of it, and actually it’s not really something you can do after work etc
You would need good stock, a 5* license and to build up a good reputation.

You need to declare all income to HMRC.

You are inspected when you first set up, including a vet check of all the dogs on the premises.
You then have twice yearly inspections, including one unannounced.
Every single bit of paperwork will be inspected.

@ArcherDog that's really interesting.

I guess all the back yard breeders aren't licences so wouldn't adhere to these guidelines?

Oh, each bitch can only be bred from a maximum of 4 times (3 times for higher rated licenses)

We usually ask breeders to rehome most of the dogs when they aren’t used for breeding, to stop it becoming a bit of a hoarding situation. They obviously like to keep some of the puppies to further their line, and they would end up with an unmanageable amount.
Most of our breeders rehome at 6years old which is a popular age for people wanting to rescue a dog without having the puppy years. Of course they always have their favourites that they can’t bear to part with so keep on as pets.

[quote cheesecrack]@ArcherDog that's really interesting.

I guess all the back yard breeders aren't licences so wouldn't adhere to these guidelines?[/quote]
Exactly. There will always be places that slip through the net, if no one reports them then we can’t catch them.

We have many different places, some are small scale with just one or two dogs in the family home.
Others have many dogs and state of the art kennels.
Neither are better/worse than the other.

I’m in touch with a breeder about a future litter.

She has 8 dogs, 3 boys, 5 girls - 2 of the boys and 2 of the girls are current breeding stock (not with each other) the others are too old or too young. They’re all shown though and yes she keeps the ones that are too old.

The two breeding age girls are bred from every couple of years after age 2 and before 8... so usually 3 litters each. When they gave them does depend a bit on when they come into season, so she might have no litters one year and 2 another, but ideally it’d be one a year alternating between them.

And no, it’s not a full time job, it’s to get herself a puppy and a bit to continue them as it’s a rare breed.

Other breeders I know breed less than that.

Neither are better/worse than the other
I have to disagree. Anyone who has dozens of dogs is not going to be giving those dogs the individual time they need, and is unlikely to be socialising the puppies in a family home.

In my view the licencing system is needlessly strict on hobby breeders. Why would I need a fire safety plan when the first thing I'd do in the event of fire would be to get the family out, immediately followed by the dogs? And the idea of having to note the four times a day I've 'interacted' with a litter when (if I ever had one) I'd be passing the whelping box in the kitchen umpteen times a day and stopping to check them, cuddle them, let the dam out for a pee etc...

As for rehoming breeding bitches at 6... Bugger that for a lark. The bitch is being treated as a commercial unit. That's commercial breeding. The whole licencing system is pitched at large-scale breeders who are exactly the sort of people I'd never buy a puppy from.

Most of our breeders rehome at 6years old which is a popular age for people wanting to rescue a dog without having the puppy years.

Is it not frowned upon to rehome dogs that have ' served their purpose' so to speak?

I wouldn’t buy from a commercial breeder who had a kennel full of dogs.
I wouldn’t want to buy from someone who discarded dogs they couldn’t breed from any longer.

Sorry, Cross post with @GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman. I agree with everything she said. I didn't realise some breeders actually had a separate premises. So I'm guessing that's a kennel of some sort? Where the dogs are kept day and night, not brought into the family home? But this is perfectly OK as long as you have a licence?

The problem with not rehoming dogs is they would end up with too many and that’s not fair on the dog.
If they keep 1 or 2 from a litter to see how they turn out/breed/show, then potentially every year they are acquiring more and more dogs.
Far better to spay the bitches and let them love out their years with undivided attention.

Why would I need a fire safety plan when the first thing I'd do in the event of fire would be to get the family out, immediately followed by the dogs? Ok and where are you going to put the dogs? Let them loose in the road? Maybe the car but what if you don’t have the keys at hand? You going to hold them, whilst calling for help and holding the children? Maybe put them in the garden, but what if the firefighters break down the fence/gate to gain access, and the dogs escape? A scared dog can scale a fence and take off or attack another dog.

Much better to have thought of a clear action plan, which usually involves having slip leads at each door and some hooks placed on a fence/gate away from the property to hook the dogs onto safely out the way etc.

@Falcone the kennels would have to be on the property, they are usually in the garden. Someone has to be present on the property at all times especially whilst there are puppies, so it can’t be another premises that is just visited.
Whelping areas have to be much more than just kennels.

Where the dogs are kept day and night, not brought into the family home? But this is perfectly OK as long as you have a licence? You don’t need a license to have a dog living in kennels, many working dogs and pets live in outside kennels. That’s not specific to breeding.

@ArcherDog

Not a breeder but part of my job is to license breeders- which is now the law no matter how many litter you produce.

Each breeder must apply for a license. They have to follow some very specific guidance on accommodation, hygiene, safety, socialisation, paperwork etc
For example someone must be in the premises at all time, puppies must be weighed at birth and regular intervals after that. Strict conditions on shelling facilities, temperature, size of living conditions. There must be a separate exercise area that is not where the dog sleeps. They must be checked and interacted with 4 times a day.
You must have a fire safety plan, you must have an infectious outbreak plan
Etc etc

Bitches must not be bred from before 12months( ideally 18months) or after 8 years old.
There must be at least 12 months from weaning to mating again (to prevent back to back litters)

Puppies must be shown with mum to prospective buyers
You must have a puppy contract.

Each specific license will say how many dogs you can have in the premises.
Most places have mostly bitches with a few dogs.

You can make a living out of it, and actually it’s not really something you can do after work etc
You would need good stock, a 5* license and to build up a good reputation.

You need to declare all income to HMRC.

You are inspected when you first set up, including a vet check of all the dogs on the premises.
You then have twice yearly inspections, including one unannounced.
Every single bit of paperwork will be inspected.

This only applies if you breed 5 or more litters a year. There are plenty of breeders breeding fewer who are entirely unregulated

Falcone, having gone off on one about the licensing system, I'll try and answer your question. I don't breed myself but I do know quite a lot of people who either breed currently, or have bred in the past.

All the ones I know take max three litters off their bitches, and keep the bitch into her dotage (I can think of one possible exception, where I think a late middle-aged bitch went to the breeder's daughter). TBH even people breeding to continue their line will make a bit of money at the end of it - though it is bloody hard work

Everyone I know at least starts the puppies indoors, though some (working dog breeders) move the puppies out to a kennel with the dam at about a month old. They are still checked and weighed and played with and cuddled and put into a run on the grass for a good run around. Most of these puppies go on to live indoors as well-adjusted adults.

I have no idea if people declare the income to the HMRC. Some will, some won't...

To get back to the licensing system, you can have literally dozens of breeding bitches (none of them health tested) in a purpose-built facility and get the green light from your council if you tick all the boxes. I'm not impressed.

ArcherDog
The problem with not rehoming dogs is they would end up with too many and that’s not fair on the dog.
They shouldn't have so many bloody dogs. I can see why you'd move a retired bitch along if you've got 10 others, but you've only got 10 others because they're your sole source of income... I'm sorry, but I think when dogs are kept commercially, welfare suffers. Dogs aren't like livestock, they're attuned to people and unless they're living as a pack (like beagles, say, who are very happy with pack life) they need human interaction. you acknowledge as much with your comment about 'undivided attention'.

Ok and where are you going to put the dogs?
The car isn't locked. We have a humungous shed. They'd be secure.

Seriously, the amount of paperwork and so forth required of a one-off hobby breeder is massive and mostly unnecessary. The law wasn't supposed to operate against hobby breeders, but it sounds as if your council is keen to apply it to anyone who breeds a litter. On welfare grounds, commercial facilities should be actively discouraged, but all enforcement of this law does is put people off having a one-off litter (thus keeping the gene pool nice and wide - unlike commercial facilities which often use the one stud for sundry cavapoo and cockapoo litters, which they pump out of their bitches).

I'm not having a go at you personally, but it used to be that a breeder with a licence was one to avoid - it was a useful warning sign of a commercial outfit. Now the line is blurred.

My father had a kennel and I worked with him when I was younger. He bred and showed Cairn Terriers. We had four females and a male.
Three of the females and the male were show dogs. The fourth female was not show quality but the puppies she produced were quality.
Each female was bred three times - at ages 2, 4, and 6 and then retired and spayed. We always had a waiting list of people wanting puppies so we never advertised. It was not a money-making operation!! It was an expensive hobby, like golf. It involved traveling every weekend to shows, paying vet fees, and all the inoculation fees for the first two sets of shots. Not to mention the ingredients for the quality dog food that he made himself.
At one time I had planned to start a small kennel with a different breed, but one of my children had allergies to dander, so instead I became a foster home for hypoallergenic rescue dogs.

And yes, he was licensed to breed and I was licensed later as a foster home. Annual inspection visits and records reviewed by the governing body.

Thanks for all the info @ArcherDog and @GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman

The decent breeders I know tend to have 2-3 bitches and maybe breed 1 litter a year from each while they are of suitable breeding age. These are people who are heavily invested in a particular breed - have done extensive research on healthy bloodlines, are members of the breed clubs and often show the breed.

We have a pure-bred dog. It was all ways my intention to get a rescue dog but none of the shelters near me would consider rehoming to a family with kids younger than about 8 or 10 and I very much wanted my kid to grow up with a pet. I have mixed feelings about the world of dog breeding. On the one hand, without these breed enthusiasts, many rarer breeds of dogs would face extinction. And there are many good breeders out there who are involved out of love of their chosen breed and who are very invested in the health of their animals.

On the other, there are some breed of dogs that, over decades, have gradually become less and less fit for purpose - eg brachy, squashed face breeds. (The difference in face shape between a pug in the 17th century and today is quite astounding.) And I get very angry with people desperate to breed for a particular visual aesthetic that is not in the dogs best interest.