Any dog breeders?

[Falcone]

Can I pick your brain? How does it work? Do you have the same Dam having pups continuously or do you have various different dogs and take turns at which one gets pregnant? Do you keep each dam until old age, even when they can't breed anymore? Do you need to inform HMRC each time you sell a pup? Do you do it as a full time source of income or on the side of a job? Do you get home inspections?

We had an ex breeding dog when I was young.

I'd definitely do it again. I think she was about 4. Fully house trained, owner knew her character well (eg good with kids etc) and she had a lovely life with us.

I wish more would think about that, and shelters, than a puppy.

Although I know taking on a shelter dog can be challenging to both be accepted by the shelter and sometimes the "right dog" for the family or a dog that isn't traumatised.

I have breed litters but would not call myself a breeder.

I have breed for a specific job role and the puppies socialisation for this role starts at birth. All dogs have a working home for them before they are born.

I have breed 4 times in 9 years.

All my dogs stay with me for life and have a fab active working life.

The 5 litters rule is not applicable anymore.

New laws came in last year which means anyone breeding for profit (which most are) has to have a license. Even if that’s just one litter.
It excludes hobby breeders if you can prove you are breeding for the sole purpose of finding a puppy to continue your line. Pretty much everyone else who sells a puppy, whether or not they lick they aren’t doing it for the money, would fall under the new category and technically require a license.

And you and say they keep all their dogs but I can assure you it’s not feasible.
Say they start with 3 bitches and 1 dog. They breed one or two bitches one year (and keep say one puppy) and the other bitch the next year (and keep a puppy).
Now they have 6 dogs. Maybe they even decide one of the puppies hasn’t grown to be a good breeding stock.
Does that mean they can’t breed until the original bitches die in 10years?
The whole point of breeding is to find the next perfect standard puppy to continue the line.

The whole point of breeding is to find the next perfect standard puppy to continue the line.
I know a top-end working dog breeder. Over the last several decades, she's bred on average about one litter every two years. She keeps a puppy from about every other litter (she has people queuing up for her dogs). She's never had more than 4 bitches (she doesn't have a stud dog, never has had).

Now they have 6 dogs. Maybe they even decide one of the puppies hasn’t grown to be a good breeding stock.
Does that mean they can’t breed until the original bitches die in 10years?*
Er, no... I know people who have 8 or 10 dogs. Those weren't the people I was talking about. I was thinking more about the large facilities where there are 12 or 15 or more breeding bitches and 2 stud dogs and the breeder is NOT in it for the love of the breed because aside from pedigree cockers and pedigree cavaliers, they're also churning out cockapoos and cavapoos: they can register 3 pedigree litters per bitch with the Kennel Club and look legit, but also take cross-bred litters as well.

Honestly, ArcherDog, it probably feels as if I'm having a go at you, but I'm not. I'm just incredibly frustrated by legislation that manages to give a gloss of acceptability to commercial dog breeding while making life awkward for ordinary hobby breeders who, after risking making a loss (vet fees etc but no live puppies) make a net profit (in normal times) of (say) £2k for eight weeks fairly intensive and sometimes very worrying work.

What would have been wrong with a short training course for say £100, leading to a simple, basic licence, with the council allowed to make a spot check after whelping? Everyone wins: the breeder gets some verification that they're not a puppy farm, puppy buyers get assurance that they're buying from someone genuine with some basic knowledge, some dogs will be better cared than they would have been otherwise, the system would be self-funding, and the tax man gets a cut.

I’ve been inspecting breeders before and after this new law came in, and I truly believe having this tighter legislation has improved the quality of breeders and the welfare of the dogs, stopped people just breeding their family pets whenever they feel like, and given us more authority over those premises.

I don’t believe it’s stopped people breeding family pets at all.
And puppy farmers still exist.
Until the general public accept having to wait and having their choices questioned there won’t be any improvement. People are selfish and want a cute puppy just like their friend down the road. And no. They don’t want to wait. It’s infuriating.

Puppy farms will always exist, just like most illegal business, where there is demand there will always be people ready to supply.

What a license does is try and ensure that that those that are breeding are doing it correctly, and allows us to inspect them regularly. Without the license they could get away with anything.

It allows potential buyers to know that they are buying from a legitimate place, not a front from a puppy farm. That their puppy is healthy. That the parents are healthy and well treated.

But I agree that the problem is potential buyers who get the idea of having a cute puppy in their head and can’t wait to get one, and damn the consequences.

I'd have no problem if the licence made it clear that this was a large-scale facility.

And no, I don't think it's stopped people breeding family pets. But then, I don't have too much of an issue with that, provided it's done with some thought, genuine care for the puppies, a good grilling of potential purchasers and enough resources to do a good job of physical care and socialisation, as well as afford emergency vet care if needed.

If licencing improves puppy farms, then good, but make it clear these are puppy farms. If it stops a lot of one-off breeders, that's less good, as it will serve to narrow the gene po of pedigree dogs (as fewer will be used for breeding) and push puppy-buyers towards the mass-production, bitch-as-commercial-unit outfits because a) there's not much choice and b) 'look, the council inspects it, it must be great!'

And yet puppy farms still have licences and are allowed to continue, despite welfare being non existent

I'd have no problem if the licence made it clear that this was a large-scale facility

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman it's fairly easy to check with council how many dogs a place is licensed to keep - can be hundreds- and with this information you can decide if that's the kind of place you want to buy a puppy from.

The problem is MN gets confused between a puppy farm and a commercial breeder.

A puppy farm is a large scale shitty building with crates of dogs stacked on top of each other, or crammed into stables. Dogs will be bred from back to back with no regards to welfare. There will be no health checks carried out in mums/puppies. They won’t be vaccinated, wormed etc. Documents will likely be forged. The puppies will be taken to a ‘front’ home with a lovely bitch posing at as the mother.
They are illegal and won’t have a license.

A large scale commercial breeder will have to adhere to the legislation in terms of accommodation, welfare, hygiene etc. Some will be better than others, some will do the bare minimum, others will be state of the art.
The animals will be heath checked, the facilities inspected twice a year.
They probably will have multiple dogs, and they won’t be treated like pets. But there is no law that says dogs have to live in a house. As long as the kennels are comfortable and the animal is free from pain and fear.
The breeders needs these dogs to be healthy and happy, to produce heathy and happy puppies that people will recommend to a friend, thus helping to continue their business.

I’ve seen pet dogs kept in worst conditions than those living at a commercial breeders.

fivedogs yes true, but that won't even occur to a lot of people.

I agree that a commercial facility is a lot better than a puppy farm: I should have said that the licence should make it clear that it's for a large facility. I also have no issue with kennelling dogs (when done properly): I know a lot of dogs who are kennelled some or all of the time who are happy and social, but these are working dogs who live fulfilling lives, with their needs taken account of and their natural drives given an outlet.

I worry about the socialisation of puppies raised in a run in a large facility, and I worry about the lives of the bitches. I have three dogs and I can easily burn through 2 hours a day on exercise and training (plus vet visits, poo picking, yard-cleaning, grooming...). I don't know how you give what is needed to 12 or 24 breeding bitches, when you have at least one litter on the ground at any given moment and are dealing with puppy buyers too. Once you start employing kennel staff, you need to make even more money.

I don't know how you give what is needed to 12 or 24 breeding bitches, when you have at least one litter on the ground at any given moment and are dealing with puppy buyers too. Once you start employing kennel staff, you need to make even more money.

My thoughts exactly.