Our 3 year old Ddog very likely has cancer. Beyond devastated.

[ItBurns]

Hi,

So Friday afternoon I got the call that nobody wants. Our vet asked me to pull over, as I was driving with hands free and she wanted my full attention. Right away I knew it must be bad.

They've found what they strongly suspect is a tumour in her bladder. She said it could be something less sinister, but she's fairly certain it's bad news. She also said how incredibly rare this is in a dog of her age.

I basically haven't stopped crying since then. Feeling utterly drained and I just can't seem to get my head around it.

She's still a pup. Bouncy and full of life and of course, mischief.

We have already made the decision that if it is that, we won't go down the chemo route. We don't want to put her through all that for a few more painful months, but then I suddenly realised that with covid, we probably won't be allowed in with her when she's being PTS and I can't bear it, quite honestly.

If she was an old dog, I think I could accept it. I would still of course be mortified, but at least she'd have had a full life. This just seems so wrong. We also have another dog who will miss her to pieces. It breaks my heart.

I suppose I'm just posting for a bit of moral support. I need to find my strength from somewhere. This is likely going to be an incredibly difficult few months...or weeks

@ItBurns

Thanks for the replies.

Just to clarify, this type of cancer is inoperable and untreatable. There would be no need to discuss treatment options. This is why I'm confused and increasingly sceptical.

The tests she's had so far are the ultrasound scan and urine tests, to see if there are any cancer cells. The latter are still not back, although the vet did say they might be, but just got lost in the system If they show up clear, then it doesn't really mean anything and if they do show cancer cells, then that's it really and a referral would be pointless. Apparently they charge a hefty cancellation fee too.

@ItBurns I'm sorry but I'm going to be a little blunt here. You have no idea if this is even cancer so cannot state it's inoperable and untreatable. You simply don't know.

Even if it is cancer there are options for treatment which can considerably enhance quality of life.
Urinary bladder cancer in a 3 year old dog is statistically very unlikely and whilst it's possible I find your insistence on this thread that it's definitely malignant cancer and definitely untreatable despite not having a diagnosis or any appropriate test results rather strange.

I'm also surprised that you're near your insurance limit at a £340 spend - what is the limit?

And no veterinary specialist charges 4-5k for a consult so that is nonsense. Initial consults are usually £2-400 with additional tests on top. Most insurance policies cover up to at least 3k so you should be fine for a bit.

I REALLY think you need a referral to a specialist as this whole process and the advice given just seems pretty bizarre to me.

Sorry to hear you're having to deal with this. It is truly awful. I'd be tempted to refuse the referral vet and ask if you could start giving a daily dose of metacam, which slows the progress of many tumours, and look at chemotherapy, which is much gentler on dogs than humans. Our dog had cancer at 5 and had it removed with no chemo, and is still going strong at 14. Another had chemo and had 2 more good years

@Veterinari, you completely misunderstand. I am not insistent at all that my ddog has cancer! My vet told me that they are almost certain, so whereas we don't have a diagnosis, I am mentally preparing myself. I can state if that cancer is inoperable, because it is, according to my vet. I never said my ddog definitely has inoperable cancer. I said she very likely has and once again, this is according to the vet. Not a pessimistic hunch. I can only go on what I'm being told by the professionals.

Again, my vet also told me that we would be looking at 4 to 5k to pretty much get through the door. Those were her words, not mine and clearly I have misinterpreted. Understandably I think! The 4 to 5 k is our insurance limit, not the £340.

I'm sorry, but to call me strange isn't "blunt", it's completely uncalled for and insensitive under the circumstances.

I've found that not all vets are alike! We began with a place where the service was a bit abrupt and charges seemed to be the focus.

A test was proposed for a lump on our dog - in case she had a rare kidney cancer.

If she did have it, there was no treatment.

If she didn't, we could leave it untreated.

The test was expensive and invasive.

The vet assumed we would go for the test - even though all it would offer us would be information. It would not make life better for ddog - she would need to be pts when the cancer developed or she would stay well if not.

We declined and simply waited and hoped she would remain well (we made sure Ddog was not suffering).

12 years later, she is still fine.
All this made us change vet and ask the purpose and likely outcome before accepting any test since.

So hope that your ddog is well OP. All fingers crossed.

I understood your posts perfectly - they are clear despite the terrible time you are having.

Misunderstandings above are probably from skimming what you said.

@1WildTeaParty, so glad your ddog is ok Did they suspect that's what it was or did they just want to rule it out as a precaution?

Thank you. I really don't want to be defending myself at a time like this. I have nothing to defend. A bit shocked by that post tbh.

[quote ItBurns]@Veterinari, you completely misunderstand. I am not insistent at all that my ddog has cancer! My vet told me that they are almost certain, so whereas we don't have a diagnosis, I am mentally preparing myself. I can state if that cancer is inoperable, because it is, according to my vet. I never said my ddog definitely has inoperable cancer. I said she very likely has and once again, this is according to the vet. Not a pessimistic hunch. I can only go on what I'm being told by the professionals.

Again, my vet also told me that we would be looking at 4 to 5k to pretty much get through the door. Those were her words, not mine and clearly I have misinterpreted. Understandably I think! The 4 to 5 k is our insurance limit, not the £340.

I'm sorry, but to call me strange isn't "blunt", it's completely uncalled for and insensitive under the circumstances.[/quote]
@ItBurns

I'm basing my response on the info you've given. You said
Just to clarify, this type of cancer is inoperable and untreatable. There would be no need to discuss treatment options.

That seems pretty definitive to me - you didn't say 'likely' or 'based on what I've been told'. I also didn't call you strange. I said your insistence on this being inoperable and untreatable despite not having a diagnosis is strange.

My comments are a direct response to the info you're giving.

I understand this is a tricky situation for you but it's frustrating when you already appear to have decided referral isn't worth it because you know what the outcome will be.

Idk about bladder cancer in dogs, but our 5 month old kitten had an ovarian cancer the size of a tennis ball - it was very aggressive, as it wasn’t there 6 weeks previously. We were shell shocked!

The vet removed all her reproductive system. The vet pathologist said such an aggressive cancer would come back and kill her! The vet told me he went by what he saw - he removed all of it!

She lived another normal healthy 16 years, until she got an aggressive lymphoma!

@Veterinari, what are you trying to do?

This kind of cancer that I'm referring to, I.e, the cancer that the vet is suggesting it is, is inoperable.

I really do think you are being unkind. You have simply misinterpreted, that's not my fault, so I shouldn't now be having to defend and explain.

It's obviously your call but I really would commit to a specialist consultation (you don't have to commit to anything more).

Your vets sound chaotic and I think in the circumstances you aren't taking in all the info (understandably) so need someone calm and clear.

It doesn't sound like you are getting that from your current vets and I have been in awful situations hence needing a neurologist vet but my own vets made sure I understood everything beforehand.

And when did I say I "know" what the outcome will be?

"Tricky time" isn't quite how I'd describe it either.

@DarkMintChocolate, so glad your cat had an unexpectedly long life. Must have been a very difficult time during diagnosis and op.

@BiteyShark, I haven't ruled out seeing a specialist. We just need to go through all our options. Hopefully the urine tests results will be back today.

My memory of the detail on the illness is a bit hazy now (after all this time) but I do remember being surprised that an invasive/expensive test was proposed when it wouldn't help my dog one way or the other.

'Insurance will pay' doesn't seem a good reason to act if there is no benefit for the dog.

@ItBurns

And when did I say I "know" what the outcome will be?

"Tricky time" isn't quite how I'd describe it either.

Just to clarify, this type of cancer is inoperable and untreatable. There would be no need to discuss treatment options

That rather seemed to suggest that you weren't looking for advice and had already decided on the outcome as you don't want to discuss treatment options.

Like I said, I'm only responding to the info you give and you've had plenty of good advice but keep disregarding it.

Regardless you've decided I'm unkind for trying to clarify the situation, have accused me of calling you names (I haven't) and so I'm going to leave you to it. Hope your dog's ok but I'll save my advice for where it's wanted. Good luck.

Veterinari, I really don't understand your problem. I am not disregarding any advice. Where are you getting this?!

If my vet has told me herself that this kind of cancer is inoperable and there are no effective treatments, what exactly am I supposed to think? Nobody has suggested here or anywhere else that I've researched, that the outcome is any different.

Your "advice" wasn't advice in the end. You began scrutinising and god knows why. So yes, thank you, but that's probably for the best.

@ItBurns I think you’ve actually been quite unfair to @Veterinari , who frankly is on this board very regularly giving extremely helpful advice . I’m afraid your posts do come across as very doom and gloom whether that’s your intention or not . Whatever it is going to cost you need to take a referral opinion as frankly from what you’ve posted your vet sounds crap and you are wasting money letting them do anything further . I actually do have a sense of what you are going through as my dog has a lump which came up very quickly last year ( over a weekend) and when our vet did a needle biopsy on the Monday he thought it may be a type of cancer that has a very poor prognosis and the lump is in his chest so would be extremely major surgery involving many large vessels and muscles . Fortunately it was benign so we now just have a dog with a large lump as it doesn’t bother the dog in any way so we have opted to not risk the surgery ( it’s also likely to recur ) .

@Floralnomad, well yes, I am feeling rather gloomy. I think that's justified. I'm sure if veterinari is a regular and respected poster, then people will defend and that's fine. You may say I've been unfair, but I feel they were incredibly insensitive and unnecessary and to be honest, I really don't want to be going back and forth with this. It's the last thing I need quite frankly.

I'm really glad to hear your ddog is ok. Must have been a huge relief.

Hi ItBurns,

I’m sorry to hear about your ddog, and won’t be getting into the specifics of disagreements with other posters, but just wanted to give my opinion (I am a vet also).

I agree that the suspected cancer needs confirmation before any decisions can be made. If your usual vets doesn’t feel confident to perform the procedure, then that is fair enough.

You can certainly ask them to get estimates on your behalf from 2 or 3 different referral centres, as prices do vary quite a bit. It is reasonable for you to ask for those estimates to detail exactly what is likely to be involved - consultation, types of scan, any further blood/urine tests needed, and possible costs of surgery or treatment. The £3-4K quoted will definitely not just be for a consultation. That would usually be no more than £300 and perhaps a fair bit less. So at the very least, go for a consultation +/- further diagnostics so that you know what you are dealing with.

It will need to be your usual vet that discusses this with the referral vets though. If specialists discussed cases with owners on the phone prior to referral, they would be bombarded with cases that were not appropriate for referral.

I hope you get some useful answers this way. If you like, PM me with your area, and I may know which local referral centres are likely to be cheaper/more costly.

But @ItBurns look at what you’ve got so far realistically - a vet that is apparently confident to scan a bladder and say your dog more than likely has cancer but is incapable of doing a biopsy, it really doesn’t make much sense or inspire any confidence in the vet .

I can’t understand why you haven’t made an appointment with a specialist and found another vet. Your current vets sound awful.

I think you need to be more pro active as you sound very passive within this process and in my experience you need to advocate more.

I agree with Vetinirari and her summary of the situation based on the information you have given.

Good luck I hope you get it sorted quickly.

“If my vet has told me herself that this kind of cancer is inoperable and there are no effective treatments, what exactly am I supposed to think? Nobody has suggested here or anywhere else that I've researched, that the outcome is any different.”

Dunno - google (and yes I know it’s google, but still) suggests radiotherapy gets results of in excess of 20 months with good quality of life

But that’s exactly why I said I’d always see the specialist, you can have the best vet in the world, but they’re never going to be up to date with every specialty... they’re GPs effectively.

It was about 4K to see the oncologist, but that was including all the diagnostic tests - and all discussion about possible treatment was with loads of information and they didn’t at any point assume I’d be treating it, it was just one of the options once they knew it definitely was cancer instead of possibly cancer.

I think you are confusing advice to get a specialist opinion and diagnostics with meaning you should aggressively treat.

I am more than happy to blow my insurance limit but I probably wouldn't aggressively treat if I found out my dog had an inoperable tumour for various reasons. BUT I wouldn't make that decision on a vets advice that had only done an ultrasound and blood tests. I am more than happy with my vet but at a minimum I would expect a biopsy to confirm and a specialist opinion.

because I realise you are stressed by it all.

Thank you @LittleCabbage. That's helpful.

@Floralnomad, I have said that I'm not happy with how things are being handled. I want to wait for the results before deciding our next move.

@tabulahrasa, I suspect that will most likely be our next move. I want to do my research on the specialist that the vet is suggesting we are referred to. I tried to find that out earlier, but nobody could tell me. It takes me about half an hour to get through, pretty much every time and so it's extra frustrating not to get any information.

@BiteyShark, thank you.

“It takes me about half an hour to get through, pretty much every time and so it's extra frustrating not to get any information.”

that’d be hellish just now...

I once had an out of hours vet find a mass on my last dog with an ultrasound, he was about 2 at the time... I think I just went into shock tbh because I can’t even remember what or where she said she’d seen stuff.

He went straight to the vet school from there, because he was really unwell, hence the out of hours and actually the mass didn’t exist, still no clue what that vet saw as it was a perforated stomach ulcer, that took several full body scans to find, lol

But I can’t imagine having to wait 30 minutes to get through to them while I thought it was cancer tbh.

tabulahrasa, you're telling me! I called a couple of days ago and I was "queue position 8"! It takes 30 minutes when I'm queue position 2 sometimes! So obviously I decided to try and catch them later

I'm not surprised you were in shock. Were they ok in the end?