at my wits end with 5 month old - resource guarding and other issues

[CircetheWitch]

Namechanged as feeling so shit about all this. Sorry it's so long.

We've got a 5 month old puppy. I'm so concerned that she has the makings of an aggressive adult dog and I'm increasingly struggling to manage my stress and anxiety over her. Part of me is beginning to think we made a big mistake and I've got to confess I'm not enjoying this.

The main worry is her resource guarding. Believe me, I am trying. We've had a behaviourist over who gave advice. I've watched dozens of videos/read a lot. I have done lots of 'leave it' and swapping training, which works sometimes, but by no means always - and I am so worried.

We always, always, try to exchange treats for whatever she's got so she learns it's in her interest to do what we ask her. Like I said, sometimes it works, but over the past month or so she has started really snarling, baring teeth and air snapping if she senses something is about to be taken from her - it's horrible when it happens. I do lots of handfeeding so she associates hands with good things, but this is still an issue. I watch owners who can prise things out of their dogs' mouths easily and I think she'll never get there.

I've got three kids (all over 9) who know not to try to take stuff from her -. but I worry, say, that one could drop something and if she's shown an interest in whatever it is, they might go to take it without thinking and she will snarl and eventually could bite. I worry about them having friends over and what could happen. Most of all I worry about where this is going. She's also growled a few times at being moved or picked up (which we don't do often as she's a large dog and already big).

She's a mix of breeds known to be intelligent and also very sweet natured - I'm concerned she's actually not. Her parents are both lovely as far as I know. She doesn't show any other reactivity towards people or other dogs (aware guarding is rooted in fear) - if anything she's over-friendly, gets very bouncy and jumps up etc. She mouthed an awful lot when she was younger and still does a bit, but this is calming down.

DH thinks that with management and training that this is something that will pass. Is he right? I read an old thread on here about a puppy that showed similar guarding issues and despite masses of training, never quite got over it. Can anyone reassure me or help? I'm really stressed about it. Thanks in advance

5 months should be okay for classes. There's a trainer near me who likes to see puppies first at about 4/4.5 months.

I'll definitely try that if she gets anything that's not a risk to her. It's tricky though if it's something that needs to be dealt with fast.
I know it doesn’t sound fast but it really is incredibly fast: piece of plastic falls to the floor and in the time it would take you to bend down you start saying “can you call the dog” and dog whizzes off before you’ve got past the first two words. I appreciate that it will take a bit of time to get there though.

Keep going with the training, you’ll get there.

Im not going to say much about the problem because you need a good behaviourist and posters probably wouldn’t like some of the things I would say but this really stood out to me:

ps - I don't think the litter thing is necessarily 'bollocks' - if you have ten puppies that are fed together, that is going to cause more of a scramble than 3 puppies who can be fed individually. Equally, if there are less toys to go round and the breeder can spend less time with each puppy alone, it makes sense this might impact negatively

My dog came from a big litter, I did do lots of preventative work granted eg dropping cheese, bacon etc into the bowl, stroking and rewarding with treats etc but she has never shown any hint of guarding towards people and like bergerdog, it’s not something I would tolerate.

Remember also, she is still only a puppy - 5 months is very young for all her training to rock solid. Give yourself and her a break and recognise the good you are both doing too.

At 5 months old she’s approaching adolescence, I think the term ‘puppy’ is a bit misleading.

She isn’t adult so suppose she is classed as a puppy technically speaking but adolescence is halfway, it’s the time to test boundaries and see just what you can get away with and in an almost adult sized animal.

I am a bit shocked I must admit with how relaxed some posters are about this, without help from a good behaviourist imo this behaviour will absolutely get worse and more dangerous as time goes on.

I had a spaniel who did this, and pp are right when they say it is attention seeking. One thing that is really simple and begun to change things for us was picking up a ball.

Whenever he picked up something (socks, sunglasses, phones) I would ignore that but pick up a ball and walk out of the room bouncing it as I went. The reaction would be almost instant in his hurry to get outside and play. I'd throw the ball for him a few times and he would forget whatever he had stolen. Don't look at her when she grabs something, pick up a toy and walk out of the room. Don't shout her, just play with it until she joins you, it won't take long, good luck.

@sillysmiles - thank you.

@borderstotheleftofme - not sure your post is necessarily all that helpful tbh. Believe me, I did lots of 'preventative' work too. All the things you say there about dropping treats in the bowl etc, lots of handfeeding and stroking, I did and still do those things - and yet we have an issue. It's very easy indeed to say you 'wouldn't tolerate' something if that something was never a problem for you!

I'm not 'tolerating' this issue. Not tolerating it is precisely why I came on here for advice. Posters who have told me their experiences of similar issues, and offered advice and/or reassurance have been really helpful to me. And for what it's worth, the behaviourist we saw wasn't attempting to minimise these issues because our dog is from a big litter - she just thought it could be one of the possible reasons WHY our dog might have this tendency.

@iamnoangel - that's a great idea, thank you!

My dog was from a litter of 14. No issues. I don’t think it’s helpful to worry about the number of puppies.
You absolutely need to prevent the dog getting stuff it shouldn’t have. Stairgates or puppy pens or shutting her out of where the kids do HW.

She's not too young for classes.

Also, it's a good idea to do the classes now, because they tend to be outside, that might be tricky when the weather turns and there might be COVID restrictions for closed spaces.

not sure your post is necessarily all that helpful tbh. Believe me, I did lots of 'preventative' work too. All the things you say there about dropping treats in the bowl etc, lots of handfeeding and stroking, I did and still do those things - and yet we have an issue. It's very easy indeed to say you 'wouldn't tolerate' something if that something was never a problem for you!
I told you to get a good behaviourist.
How much more helpful did you want me to be?!
It wouldn’t have been right to give you advice on a problem that has the potential to be so dangerous.

I'm not 'tolerating' this issue. Not tolerating it is precisely why I came on here for advice. Posters who have told me their experiences of similar issues, and offered advice and/or reassurance have been really helpful to me
Again, I did offer advice.
I said see a good behaviourist.
That is the only advice you should be getting on a problem like resource guarding which has the potential to be really dangerous.

And for what it's worth, the behaviourist we saw wasn't attempting to minimise these issues because our dog is from a big litter - she just thought it could be one of the possible reasons WHY our dog might have this tendency
But that’s absolute wank!
As other posters have also said but I notice there’s no defensiveness towards them.
Dog training/behaviour is unregulated, there are really good and really bad trainers and behaviourists.

I've got a solid black male cocker spaniel who resource guards, it can be quite common in the breed unfortunately. Started from an early age, and as others have said, worst about 8 months or so, unfortunately he has bitten. He's 5 now and a lot better but I know it is part of his temperament unfortunately, and the potential behaviour is always there, lingering in the background and can come out at times.

So for starters I would say - don't blame yourself - yes, owners can make this issue worse or better, or they can manage well or badly, but many experts believe there is a genetic element to this, and it was well known in some breeding lines I believe.

I would recommend the Jean Donaldson book 'Mine!' as it details steps to manage this behaviour.

Yes, you have to have more desirable treats or items to exchange - every dog has their internal value hierarchy - you have to present something that is more valuable to them than what they already have.

You've already noticed it is worse when she is tired - same here - when my dog was younger I used a crate to enforce resting time and this improved things a lot.

Instruct her to come to you to give things rather than chasing her or reaching over/ around her, that will set her mind that she is complying and in agreement with what you want from her. With my dog I won't take anything from him until he has stepped forward to me, at least one step, to demonstrate he is happy to do this.

I made toy puzzles where he would have to give them to me to release the treats within - that helped get him in the habit of realising there were benefits to handing things over. So, things like plastic bottles full of treats that were hard for him to get out. He knows now if I say 'Let me help you' I can release them for him. So he creates the positive association with handing things over.

But unfortunately there have been times that he is in a world of his own and I can't get near him, and a roast dinner would not tempt him away from what he has. My dog walker knows that she is not to try to get things from him if he is guarding strongly - unfortunately on the very small off chance he chokes I have to accept that, otherwise I would be in the position of taking him to be put to sleep when he attacks.

I think I have a very difficult case (and I have no children to worry about which is a huge bonus), and as you can see on this thread lots of other people have had some joy overcoming this - I hope that is true for you.

“I am a bit shocked I must admit with how relaxed some posters are about this, without help from a good behaviourist imo this behaviour will absolutely get worse and more dangerous as time goes on.“

The thing is, resource guarding is a behaviour that’s within normal for dogs - unwanted, yes, and potentially dangerous especially with children around.

But some breeds are more prone to it, some lines of some breeds are more prone to it, some dogs just have it... because it’s logical and self reinforcing. They want stuff and know there’s a possibility they’re not getting to keep it, so they try to make sure they do their best to keep hold of it.

The op has a behaviourist involved already, she’s doing all the right kind of things, it’s just a case of going back to the behaviourist to change the training plan a bit to make sure it’s all on the right track.

She’s still quite young, she’s not an older rescue with years of bad handling to undo...

@bergerdog - I was here for advice from other dog owners who may have experienced similar - isn't that what this board is for? A lot of questions on here can be answered with the advice - 'see a good behaviourist', but there's also real value in hearing from others who may have experienced similar (which you said you haven't) and learning from them.

As for litter size possibly making puppies more prone to guarding being 'absolute wank', some might disagree with you. See here, for example -

pethelpful.com/dogs/Preventing-Resource-Guarding-in-Puppies

Breeders may also evoke resource guarding in predisposed puppies by feeding a large litter of puppies with one single bowl and not enough food. When supply is limited and there is overcrowding, the pups may feel in a competitive mood and they may start eating fast, pushing other pups, stealing food and displaying signs of resource guarding.

• Again, I don't think anyone would ever suggest that litter size IS the sole reason dogs might have guarding issues, just that it might be a contributing factor to what might be a complex issue. Feel free to disagree though!

Feel free to disagree though!
Tbh, you’ve been so breathtakingly defensive I’m not really interested in engaging any further.

I’m not quite sure exactly what it was I said that irritated you quite so much, I said you needed a good behaviourist, that without one it would probably get worse and that litter size almost certainly is not to blame.

The fact it’s a known issue in golden retrievers and cocker/springer spaniels strongly suggests its largely genetic, as a PP said, not because it’s come from a big litter.

Where I said I wouldn’t tolerate, what I meant by that is I would sternly correct but didn’t want to say so because you shouldn’t try any training on aggression issues without a good behaviourists advice and because discipline has become a real no no in the dog world.

You seem to have taken it very personally, as if I was suggesting you weren’t bothered by it.
Which wasn’t what I was suggesting at all.

@suggestionsplease1 - thank you for sharing your experiences and for the advice. It's really interesting what you and other posters are saying about this getting worse at around the 8 month mark. I'm hoping that putting strategies in place now will help. I'll also check out the book.

@tabulahrasa - thank you too. It is understandable that dogs can guard things, you're right, but I just want her not to do this

I’m not really interested in engaging any further.
Then continues to engage further...

@bergerdog - not being 'breathtakingly defensive' I don't think. You said that this was something you hadn't experienced with your dog. You also said you were surprised at some of the advice that other posters offered, and that something a behaviourist mentioned in context was 'absolute wank'. In response I pointed out that I've found a lot of posters advice helpful and that others agree with litter size possibly being a contributing factor....but you're free to disagree. No need to get so wound up.

And for what it's worth, my dog isn't a spaniel or a golden retriever!

@CircetheWitch I don’t think it’s me you mean to keep tagging

@bergerdog - apologies! I was talking to @Borderstotheleftofme there...sorry. All these B names on a friday afternoon....

I don’t think you’ve been defensive at all @CircetheWitch.

I hope some of the advice we’ve given is helpful.

@Sertchgi123 - it has been helpful indeed. Thank you

“It is understandable that dogs can guard things, you're right, but I just want her not to do this”

Oh I totally wasn’t anywhere near suggesting that you should just not do anything about it...

Obviously it’s not a behaviour anyone wants and with DC, concerning.

Just more, it happens, she’s little still, you’ve got a behaviourist, you’ve not been doing anything stupid like just taking her food off her (which somehow still seems to be a thing people do) - chances are it’ll be resolvable.

We have a spaniel, and when she was a puppy, until about 6 months old, she would growl when we asked her to get down off the sofa, or our bed, or if we tried to move her out of the way for any reason, as if she was resource guarding a comfy spot.
I was petrified she was going to be an aggressive dog.
We started luring her with treats if we wanted her to do something, and she's not growled once in the past 2 years, we don't even use treats anymore, just ask her to get down.
Different scenario obviously, but ours grew out of it.