Yorkie mix with bichon, any experience?

[Inanutshelldaze]

A lady we know very well will have yorkie/bichon pups available in the next couple of months. She lives near us & treats her dogs & pups like little babies. Has anyone any experience of this cross? My dc are dying for a puppy. The father is a dark black & tan purebred yorkie & the mother a white bichon.
Another lady in our town has cavachons due soon, need to make a decision!

It’s fairly common for a litter to make no profit at all - not because the puppies are free...
But if it’s a breed with multiple health tests available then that adds up pretty quickly and because it’s hugely unlikely to own a dog and a bitch that actually complement each other, there’s stud fees to add on, plus the actual cost of raising a litter properly
I really have my reservations about this.
Me and DH did briefly think about breeding, even after calculating the cost of all the health screens/DNA screens, registration, food, worming/fleas, stud fees, first vaccination etc we were still in profit..
We vetoed the idea in the end because we were worried about bitches having problems and potentially dying and pups getting into the wrong hands but yeah, I am sceptical about the whole ‘we make no profits on our puppies!) thing.

“Me and DH did briefly think about breeding, even after calculating the cost of all the health screens/DNA screens, registration, food, worming/fleas, stud fees, first vaccination etc we were still in profit..”

Depends which health tests... and how many puppies, which is always an unknown, lol, and obviously another litter from the same bitch wouldn’t cost the same to produce as the health tests are already done at that point.

It also varies by breed because prices vary - 3 lab puppies at £800ish (pre-lockdown, god knows where prices are just now) when you’re keeping one, for instance, you’d have spent more than that...

5 puppies from a small breed with less health tests and a much higher price... likely to be some profit.

I don’t breed btw, just pointing out it’s not that hard to add up to making no profit.

Op which dog did you decide on? So exciting! Loli (Cav) is currently keeping a poorly DH company by sleeping on his head.

Everything @Borderstotheleftofme and @BwanaMakubwa said.

All breeders are making a profit. Do not kid yourself that your ethical pedigree breeder isn’t making money.

More savvy breeders have realised people don’t want pedigree dogs, they want a family friendly, affordable pet. Hence the rise of cockapoos etc. The sheer numbers of them you see out and about is testament to their suitability.

Supply and demand.
No one is going to breed pedigree poodles if the customers only want cockapoos.

Deedimer, we are going to go with the yorkie /bichon. It was such a hard decision. Both would make great family dogs but I always had terriers growing up & my favourite was a yorkie /West Highland mix who was the best dog ever (& completly free, he came from a farmer nearby). The cavachons are amazing also but I have more experience with terriers (& their stubbornness!).

I have no problem with breeding dogs as long as it is done ethically, as in the dogs are well cared for, healthy, free of extremes, bred to be able to work if a working breed and care is taken to place the pups in suitable home.
This.

As for profit... Based on a breeder I know, I would say her last litter definitely turned a profit, even after allowing for the stud fee, plus a share of health tests the bitch had before she was bred the first time, plus scan, some extra kit for the puppies, plus any vet fees, flea and worm, plus registration, plus lots of extra food and laundry. And her time. A LOT of time: with the pregnant and delivering bitch, with the puppies, dealing with enquiries, meeting prospective owners and (during Covid) delivering puppies. You also need to think about the time and cost of proving the bitch in work and trials - the training, the petrol, the entry fees, the overnight accommodation. It tots up very quickly. Any profit the breeder made was probably fair recompense for her (highly skilled and experienced) time.

But, had there been a c-section and a small litter... The potential is there to make some money, but there is a considerable risk of making a loss. Emergency midnight c-section with only 3 surviving puppies of 6, when you had hoped for 8, so you only gross (say) 2.4k and now have the section to pay for as well as the stud fee and everything else?

There's no hybrid vigour with 2 crossbreed pedigrees - I mean it's probably a myth anyway but the only way you'd get it is to find a heinz 57 dog
Why do you think hybrid vigour is a myth? Its a fairly well established biological fact.

Many of the genetic defects are caused by recessive genes, so when you mate two dogs carrying that recessive gene, some of the puppies inherit the gene from both parents and get the condition. Limited genetic diversity in the breed increases the chances of that happening.
If you cross two breeds, one that has a problem with a condition, and one that doesn't, you are eliminating the problem occurring in that first litter.
Problems could occur if you then mated the offspring as a breed (I mean for example cockapoo x cockapoo) but not if you continued to mate spaniel x poodle to get your cockapoos.

I really don't see the issue. I think its a good thing people can buy a more diverse range of dogs.

Lots of pedigree breeders are trying to improve their breeds but lots are unscrupulous and when the popularity of particular breeds increases its always going to cause issues. See French bulldogs at the moment, poor things

There is a massive difference between making a profit and breeding purely for money. Surely you can see that?

Wolfie I'm still waiting for the pm of all the breeders who do not breed for profit? Surely you have a long list considering you are so knowledgable & passionate! I can see there is a difference but please provide the information as to where to find these non profit breeders you know so well?!!!!

“Many of the genetic defects are caused by recessive genes, so when you mate two dogs carrying that recessive gene, some of the puppies inherit the gene from both parents and get the condition. Limited genetic diversity in the breed increases the chances of that happening.
If you cross two breeds, one that has a problem with a condition, and one that doesn't, you are eliminating the problem occurring in that first litter.
Problems could occur if you then mated the offspring as a breed (I mean for example cockapoo x cockapoo) but not if you continued to mate spaniel x poodle to get your cockapoos.”

Except, both cockers and poodles carry PRA, so you wouldn’t automatically eliminate it.

Other health conditions are caused by multiple genes/conformation... so things like patella luxation are an issue in both bichons and yorkies, so crossing them again doesn’t eliminate it, or hip dysplasia in standard poodle and lab crosses...

There are a few breeds with genetic conditions that could be removed by outcrossing and there’s some merit in outcrossing brachycephalic breeds with breeds with a better skull shape, though that has unpredictable results.

But in general - using two breeds instead of one doesn’t automatically mean healthier.

Thoughtful, careful breeding eliminates health issues, whether they’re pedigree or crosses.

@Inanutshelldaze

Wolfie I'm still waiting for the pm of all the breeders who do not breed for profit? Surely you have a long list considering you are so knowledgable & passionate! I can see there is a difference but please provide the information as to where to find these non profit breeders you know so well?!!!!

She owns wolfhounds... if you’re looking at small poodle crosses, contact details of wolfhound breeders aren’t going to be much use to you.

I mean, I know a couple of gundog breeders, but they’re not breeding just now and again, a working bred lab would be nothing like what you want though.

Or I’ve a couple of Rottweiler breeders I’ve looked out that so far look good, because I was considering another rottie... but they’re not to a lot of people’s taste.

There are definitely people on this board with mini poodles though, can’t remember who off the top of my head though.

And it wasn’t poodle crosses was it? Lol

They were both bichons... don’t know if anyone has them or not.

DM had a Bichon, Poodle cross and he was a lovely friendly little dog but he was a bit anxious and didn’t like being left and wailed if DM went out of sight, he also had some digestive problems so had to eat a special diet, he also hated going out in the wet. A lot of this could have been nurture rather than nature though as DM was in her 70s and lived alone and treated him like a toddler

Thanks tabul, we're in a 2 up, 2 down with a little garden so we need a small little pup. We're very excited about the bichon/yorkie puppy, it's going to get so much love from me & the dc!
After talking with friends & again with the breeder we think it would suit us better than the cavachon. They are beautiful dogs too. She's giving us the puppy when it's 12 weeks old but said she'll hang on to it longer for us if we want but I think 12 weeks is enough??

12 weeks is well into the socialisation window and doesn't give you much time. What is the breeders socialisation programme? She can't possibly fully socialise an entire litter

Why is she homing pups so late?

12 weeks is well into the socialisation window and doesn't give you much time
True, but she may well (you’d hope!) be doing socialisation herself.
Small breeds being kept until 12 weeks isn’t at all uncommon though

Why is she homing pups so late?
It is very common to keep toy breeds until 12 weeks actually.

I expected it to be sooner but she said she preferred the puppies to be stronger in build & a bit bigger especially going to homes with children as they can get injured very easily due to their size. She absolutely does socialise them, we know a few separate families who got puppies from her over the years & all have said the pups arrived happy & well adjusted.

££££££££££££ and yes she IS a backyard breeder. I bet the pups will be sold for more than £1500?? She wont be charging just for her costs.

No the pups are 300, no deduction even though we're her neighbours 😂 Im going to research taking the puppy earlier if this is such a problem? I didn't realise, friends of ours got a puppy recently & collected within 8 weeks. I thought ours was going to be a similar timeline & we would be collecting at Halloween 🤔 but she told me this morning they'll be ready the end of November but that we can call in to see the puppies with dc whenever we want to.

8-12weeks is standard, smaller dogs should be left longer than large breeds.

@Inanutshelldaze

I expected it to be sooner but she said she preferred the puppies to be stronger in build & a bit bigger especially going to homes with children as they can get injured very easily due to their size. She absolutely does socialise them, we know a few separate families who got puppies from her over the years & all have said the pups arrived happy & well adjusted.

How does she socialise them? It's almost impossible for 1-2 people to fully socialise 6 or so puppies adequately. Socialisation should include veterinary experiences, a range of environments, other animals, different people and especially children if the pup is to live with them. Introducing children at 12 weeks is pretty late www.bluecross.org.uk/pet-advice/socialising-your-puppy

8-9 week old toy breeds aren't really any more fragile than 12 week old toy breeds - regardless of age your children will need constant supervision and kind hands with the puppy

The 300 covers the vets bills, worming & vaccination up to that date. So the puppy will be seeing the vet, she has chickens, other dogs & grandchildren who are live on the road too & are always in & out daily. I'm not worried about the socialisation, the puppies are being born into a lovely busy household & will be treated so well. I'm sure I can ask to have them earlier but I trust her & she really loves her dogs.

It’s a sign of a good toy breeder to keep to 12 weeks.
It’s well known that toy breed puppies should ideally stay with their mums to 12 weeks so I’m a bit shocked that an alleged vet is seemingly unaware of this.

@Borderstotheleftofme

It’s a sign of a good toy breeder to keep to 12 weeks. It’s well known that toy breed puppies should ideally stay with their mums to 12 weeks so I’m a bit shocked that an alleged vet is seemingly unaware of this.

Please direct me to evidence backing up your assertion - I'm keen to be educated

What I do know is that onset of neophobia (fear of new experiences is similar in Yorkies to larger breeds though may occur even earlier in other toy breeds and so early socialisation is actually more beneficial for many toy breeds to prevent fear related behaviours which are often prevalent in these dogs. There is also variation in mobility and emotional development between different toys breeds and so I generally find blanket rules like
'toy breeds should stay with their mum til 12 weeks' inaccurate and unhelpful

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1558787815000313?via%3Dihub

OP, I think your breeder sounds fantastic, I wouldn’t buy a toy breed puppy under 12 weeks and hope you update with pictures.