Untrained dogs around toddler

[Dontiknowit]

Am taking my very active, inquisitive toddler to a family party at the weekend. There will be 3 dogs there: one old grumpy one who has previously bitten my dh on the face and scarred him, one quite young but huge siberian husky, and one small dog whose owner doesn't believe in discipline or training (eg at previous family party dog nipped someone and drew blood, owner responded by giving dog a treat).
Party host is insisting dogs are all kept on leads to keep my DC safe which I'm grateful for but I don't know anything about dogs. Do I need to keep my DC away from the dogs completely? She's only 13 months, has been walking for a while but not old enough to explain how to be safe. Can I let her stroke them? How do I keep her safe doing this and not piss off the dogs?
Sorry if this sounds like stupid questions, I've never had a dog myself so just don't know what's reasonable!

There is absolutely no way on earth I would take my 13 month old toddler to that house. Let's look at it logically- you have an old grumpy dog that has previously bitten you DH face and scarred him, you then have a boisterous Young Siberian Husky which as dogs go are as close to a wolf as you can get and although are great for pulling sledges are not known for being child friendly. And lastly a smaller completely untrained dog that will see your child as an easy target. Plus put all three together and they get very "packy" Please please do not put your child as risk here - you would never forgive yourself if your child was bitten, scarred or worse whilst knowing there was a risk before you went.

I would not greet a dog by sticking my hand out to them, especially if I wasn’t familiar with dog body language. It’s seen as threatening by a lot of dogs. This infographic explains what to do and what not do when greeting a dog: drsophiayin.com/app/uploads/2017/08/How-to-Greet-a-Dog-Poster.pdf

As well as asking the owner, it’s important to also ask the dog by looking for signs that the dog is happy to be approached and then touched. A lot of dog owners don’t understand dog body language so think that their dog is happy to be approached and touched by people, even though it is showing signs of being uncomfortable, such as lip licking, yawning etc. Plus, it’s hard for the owner to see these signs when the dog is stood in front of them on a lead and even the most sociable dog will want to be left alone at times. That’s why it’s advisable to let the dog approach you rather than you invade their space by offering them a hand to sniff.

OP, there’s a book called Ask the dog by Joanne Hinds. It may be worth getting for your daughter when she’s a little bit older, to help teach her how to interact with dogs.

Why would u even risk it?

@Happenchance

When greeting a dog, you are supposed to hold out on hand, palm up, slowly and let it sniff. Obviously move slowly, don't thrust it in it's face. And obviously only do this if the dog has approached in a friendly way e.g. big ass doggy grin, wagging tail etc etc or if you have checked with the owner that it is ok to make friends. You offer your hand palm up at around chin level because if a dog sees this big hand descending on it from above then it can get frightened.

@Happenchance And yes, only if they approach you. I've been surrounded with dogs my whole life and now work with dogs. Trained by some pretty first class dog experts and that's how they do it too.

Thank you all for your advice.
The nippy untrained dog is now not going because the owner recognised it wouldn't be happy on a lead all day.
Thanks to those who suggested ways of helping DD stroke the dogs safely but I'm not going to risk it today. Me or dh will stay with her and make sure she doesn't get close to the dogs or put her in the carrier. If the owners aren't keeping them back we'll just go home - which is a shame as I know great grandparents would much rather DD is there than the dog (and their owners).
Also yes we are breaking the rules with 3 households but great grandparents have been shielding for months but have decided they want to live while they're alive and see their family so I'm not going to argue.

When greeting a dog, you are supposed to hold out on hand, palm up, slowly and let it sniff. Obviously move slowly, don't thrust it in it's face. And obviously only do this if the dog has approached in a friendly way e.g. big ass doggy grin, wagging tail etc etc or if you have checked with the owner that it is ok to make friends. You offer your hand palm up at around chin level because if a dog sees this big hand descending on it from above then it can get frightened
It’s far safer to just not approach strange dogs tbh.

People don’t tend to hear “hold out hand, palm up, slowly and let it sniff. Obviously move slowly, don't thrust it in it's face. And obviously only do this if the dog has approached in a friendly way e.g. big ass doggy grin, wagging tail etc etc or if you have checked with the owner”, they just hear “hold out hand”

Loads of dog owners can’t even read body language accurately but we are expecting non dog owners to?

Just don’t touch dogs you don’t know!

@Borderstotheleftofme

I did say ask first. Or if you understand dogs body language, you will know a wide, friendly doggy grin and waggy tail if you see one. And I can read my dog's body language just fine. I stay close when someone is stroking her, ready to pull her away if needed. Not that I've ever needed to. Although it is common on mumsnet for people who have never owned a dog and know nothing about them to tell dog owners that they know fuck all.

OP, it's probably best you don't go if the dogs will be there. The situation sounds quite unpredictable with a toddler and two dogs who have a history of biting and by your own admission, you don't know much about dogs.

The point I was trying to make was that people generally (dog owners included) are not good at reading dogs and often don’t bother to even try.
They just want to stroke the nice doggy.

They often don’t check the dogs language first and they often don’t ask the owner.

They just dive right in there trying to interact.

It is safer for everyone concerned to end this idea that we can go and stroke every dog and instead leave dogs we don’t know alone.

And asking the owner is pointless, I have met so many owners who insist their dog is ‘playing’ or ‘wants to say hello’ or ‘loves attention’ and when you look closely at the dog it’s communicating the exact opposite!

Leave dogs you don’t know alone!

And I don’t know if this ”Although it is common on mumsnet for people who have never owned a dog and know nothing about them to tell dog owners that they know fuck all” was specifically aimed at me or not but if it was, I am actually a dog owner, the name is a big clue!

Border terrier? I've got one.

But speak for yourself, love. I was brought up to watch dog's body language. Studied animal behaviour at uni etc etc. Admittedly there are some stupid dog owners out there and clueless non dog owners who will run up to a strange dog and start patting it on the head.

I know my dog and a lot of my dog owning friends can say the same thing. If someone strokes her, I'm on hand just in case I need to intervene, but I've never had too. This border and the last border I had were as soft as warm butter with people.

@Purpledaisychain I grew up with dogs and knew very little about dog body language. The last decade of working in a dog rescue has taught me what I wish I’d know then.

I have seen countless times the difference in how a dog responds to someone (a new volunteer or potential adopter) when they greet it by sticking a hand out into their space rather than letting the dog come to them and make the first contact. The latter is preferred by every dog, even the confident ones. That’s why every potential adopter is asked to let the dog come to them and new volunteers are trained not to stick their hands out to dogs, a lot of whom find it noticeably threatening.

Obviously, these are rescue dogs so some could have negative associations with hands coming towards them, due to being hit etc, but so could a random dog that you meet on the street or in a dog training class.

Another thing to consider is that a dog could think that a person is holding a treat out to them if they hold their hand out in the way that you described, which could result in the person getting nipped.

That sounds positive OP. You're right to be taking no chances.

As an aside, I'd also suggest teaching your child how to behave around dogs too. You sound switched on, but you wouldn't believe how many parents of 'active and inquisitive' toddlers seem to think nothing of letting their children approach unknown dogs, grab at dogs, get in their face, etc. usually at least a half a dozen of them turn up on dog threads arguing that they couldn't possibly be expected to prevent their child charging up to dogs because they're inquisitive and that's what toddlers do. Funnily enough none of them seem to allow their child to charge into the road because they're inquisitive and just wanted to look what was on the other side. They selectively don't bother to parent around dogs and then blame dog owners if they dog barks and backs off when it doesn't like its face being grabbed

Not only would I be concerned for my child, I'd be concerned for myself. Some of the dogs have already bitten adults.
I wouldn't go.

Just don't go anywhere near - why would you for goodness sake?

Border terrier? I've got one
No, border collie.

But speak for yourself, love. I was brought up to watch dog's body language. Studied animal behaviour at uni etc etc. Admittedly there are some stupid dog owners out there and clueless non dog owners who will run up to a strange dog and start patting it on the head
Your qualifications, knowledge etc in the grand scheme of things are irrelevant though to the point I am trying to make.

When you have a widely accepted view that it is okay pet any dog you see as long you approach slowly with a hand out and stroke under its chin and/or ask the owner if it’s okay it puts people and dogs at risk because a large proportion of people cannot accurately read body language.

Hence why I say that it is safer for everybody concerned to not interact with strange dogs.

I know my dog and a lot of my dog owning friends can say the same thing. If someone strokes her, I'm on hand just in case I need to intervene, but I've never had too
Discomfort signs can be subtle, YOU may be able to read your dog perfectly but many people can’t.
And if a dog does get uncomfortable, it is very possible for them to react before you can intervene.

This border and the last border I had were as soft as warm butter with people
Thats nice but plenty of dogs aren’t.
My own dog isn’t at all aggressive but she is somewhat aloof.
She will be polite but usually, she would rather not be touched and actually, of the adult, mature dogs of friends and family I have/do know well (dachshunds, JRT, pug, shih tzu, patterdale, retrievers, chihuahua, staffy, other collies) none of them are genuine ‘social butterflies’ and actively want much petting from strangers though they will all accept it politely.
I question how much strangers ‘saying hello’ is for the dog’s benefit tbh.

@Borderstotheleftofme

No, I didn't mean approach with a hand out. I meant if you go to stroke it, either go from underneath or from the side. Because, especially with small dogs, if they see a large hand descending on them from above then it can spook them. And I'm not going to stop people from stroking her either. She loves humans. If someone walks past her without stopping to say hello she sits down and stares after them until they either pay her attention or she accepts that they are just not interested. So I would say that it is benefitting her. I know my dog, I know what I am doing with her. She hasn't eaten anybody yet. My last dog actually helped get a few kids over a fear of dogs in the town we lived in. The parents asked if they could stroke her, not because they wanted to touch the cute dog but because they wanted to help their children get over a crippling phobia, so there was method to what you believe to be madness. Each dog is different and it has to be taken on a case by case basis. My original point has been so badly derailed I don't think there is any point even going back to it, but the jist of it was that
I wasn't going to sit here and be called and idiot for letting other people touch my dog.

No, I didn't mean approach with a hand out. I meant if you go to stroke it, either go from underneath or from the side. Because, especially with small dogs, if they see a large hand descending on them from above then it can spook them
I know what you meant, I just personally feel that it’s unwise to have a widespread belief that it’s okay to be stroking other people’s dogs as long as you ask first.
I feel that it puts people and dogs at risk unnecessarily because for all the dogs that genuinely love it there will be loads who don’t and people don’t usually realise unless they are full on growling and lunging.
And I'm not going to stop people from stroking her either
She loves humans.
If someone walks past her without stopping to say hello she sits down and stares after them until they either pay her attention or she accepts that they are just not interested
So I would say that it is benefitting her
Probably.
But that doesn’t mean that everybody should think that they can stroke every dog as long as they ask.
It puts people (and dogs) at risk.
I’ve seen so many times before children all excited as their parent asks if the dog is friendly.
The answer is almost always yes and so many times my heart has been in my mouth as I’ve seen whale eyes, stiffening, moving away, tucked tails...
I know my dog, I know what I am doing with her
I’m not disputing that, but as I have said, you are one person, the fact that you personally know your dog and know she is happy to interact doesn’t change the fact that many people don’t know their dog and their dog doesn’t want to interact.
My last dog actually helped get a few kids over a fear of dogs in the town we lived in The parents asked if they could stroke her, not because they wanted to touch the cute dog but because they wanted to help their children get over a crippling phobia, so there was method to what you believe to be madness
My view is still the same.
Each dog is different and it has to be taken on a case by case basis
That’s fine if you truly understand the dog, a lot of people don’t.
For all the dogs who genuinely adore stranger affection there are plenty who don’t but begrudgingly accept it and their owners have no idea because the signs are too subtle.
My original point has been so badly derailed I don't think there is any point even going back to it, but the jist of it was that

I understand perfectly what you are saying I just don’t agree with you.
I wasn't going to sit here and be called and idiot for letting other people touch my dog
I didn’t call you an idiot.
I didn’t call you anything offensive at any point.

@Borderstotheleftofme

Am taking my very active, inquisitive toddler to a family party at the weekend Please don’t

one old grumpy one who has previously bitten my dh on the face and scarred him
I would have been pressing for this dog to be PTS.
Like fuck would my child ever be at the house ever again while it was alive.

one small dog whose owner doesn't believe in discipline or training (eg at previous family party dog nipped someone and drew blood, owner responded by giving dog a treat)
Ditto, would never let my child be in the same house.

Do I need to keep my DC away from the dogs completely?
Absolutely!

Can I let her stroke them?

Are you quite mad?!
Two of them have bitten people?!

How do I keep her safe doing this and not piss off the dogs?
Keep her well away from the dogs.

^

This x 1,000 times

I can't believe you are even contemplating taking your precious LO there ......

I question how much strangers ‘saying hello’ is for the dog’s benefit tbh
I'm inclined to agree.

I'm happy for strangers who ask to say hello to do so, if my dogs are in the right mood, because I think it's important that they get used to interaction and remain used to interaction. However, I'm also very willing to say 'not today thank you/she's not in the mood/we're training other areas'.

You're right about people not reading dogs well though. I used to be scared of dogs and couldn't read them, and I've lost count of how many times I've seen ridiculously over the top reactions to dogs when out and about. Equally, I've had people think I'm being rude because I've told them one of dogs doesn't enjoy having her face stroked because "awww she does... You do love fuss (I remove my dog who is a now behind me)... Look she's talking, say hello doggie". 🙄 She's not taking, she's shown she doesn't want to be touched and I've removed her so stop trying to tell me I should let you and your kids treat her as a petting zoo.
Some people can't see that part of having a well trained and well socialized dog comes from knowing and respecting your dog's temperament and boundaries.

Just wanted to report back as lots of people thought I was crazy for taking my dd to the party...
it was absolutely fine.
Dogs are on leads tied to trees. They got taken on walks when they needed a break. And we stayed close to DD and pulled her away if she was heading towards dogs.