Dog training confusion

[Hyperfish101]

It’s been a while since I had a dog. Our new rescue has some issues that need to be addressed. I am awaiting an appointment with a behaviourist. In the meantime my perusal of online sites has left me confused. Training is very anti-aversive. I get we want to build trust not fear but honestly I am surprised at some of the approaches. Everything is positive reinforcement but I feel I will end up with a dog addicted to treats! Even after a few days she hassles me for them. Also it’s hard to ignore bad behaviour. Surely it’s fine to say ‘no’ in a fierce voice? I’m all for a calm approach but even toddlers are told off occasionally?

I find it all very confusing.

Interesting views on the need to punish or stop a behaviour. If a dog is doing something I dont want I will ask them to do something else.

So if running off I would recall them, if jumping up I would ask for a down. If picking up something they shouldn't I would recall to me or ask them to drop it.

I can not think of a scenario when I had to "punish" or tell them off for what they were doing.

When do you "punish" your dogs?

@ViperBugloss I did specific training with him for separation anxiety which was the root cause of barking when I wasn't around when he was younger. So now his separation anxiety has been resolved he is calm and doesn't bark at home when I am not there (I have a dog monitor to check).

As you will know, there are many different motivations for dogs barking, so it is helpful to address the root cause for each.

I have read through the thread, but I can't see that anyone has mentioned clicker training. OP, there are lots of articles online/training books about it, so I won't go into a full explanation here, but it worked for my dog. It also means that, once your dog understands the clicker system, you don't have to treat every time. I treat about every 3 or 4 clicks and quite randomly, and the anticipation keeps her very interested.
Also, especially if you feed kibble, you can take the treats out of the meal allowance, which means you are not mistakenly overfeeding your dog.
When I was teaching mine to come to call, we used to venture out with a clicker, a whistle and a bag of treats, which was a bit of a juggling act at times. Now, at 3 and a half, I simply have to call and she comes. She would never be given a treat for that now as it is ingrained behaviour, and I only use the clicker for teaching new things now as all the basics are well established.

When do you "punish" your dogs?

I have verbally corrected and followed up with a time out for:

• barking
• stealing food
• sniffing at food
• resource guarding food from the cat

And I have got right in her face and shouted and scruffed then time outed her for nipping the cat’s tail once when she was a kitten.
I wouldn’t normally be so aggressive but she could very easily kill a full grown cat let alone a tiny kitten.
Zero tolerance for predatory aggression.

Some bad behaviours like chewing, I have given a verbal correction then immediately given an alternative thing to chew.

Puppy biting I used get up and leave the room.

@ViperBugloss

Interesting views on the need to punish or stop a behaviour. If a dog is doing something I dont want I will ask them to do something else.

So if running off I would recall them, if jumping up I would ask for a down. If picking up something they shouldn't I would recall to me or ask them to drop it.

I can not think of a scenario when I had to "punish" or tell them off for what they were doing.

When do you "punish" your dogs?

I would say I largely do the same, in terms of giving an instruction, but I think I use tone of voice to indicate I'd rather not see that particular behaviour in the future again.

So, if my dog is picking up something he shouldn't in the park which could cause him injury I'd rather it not got to the stage where I need to recall him and ask him to give me it - I would rather he leave it altogether - my tone of voice during 'Leave it!' is enough for him to know I would be unhappy if he picked it up. So on future walks he may happen to see things he would like to pick up but then looks back at me knowing I would be unhappy, and doesn't pick them up in the first place. (Usually, but not all the time!) And then I tell him 'Good boy for leaving it!'.

I don't know that you can initially train that positively very easily. Sure you could have an upbeat voice and give a reward for leaving interesting things, but that could probably motivate the dog on future walks to seek out things they shouldn't and stand by them to get the treat. And then there might be that one time when what they found was absolutely irresistible and they ate it anyway.

Dh almost had a row with the woman who ran the local “positive training” dog class. It was far too positive!

You need to be kind, but firm. Every dog (or child!) needs to learn No Means No and not just lured away from something by bribing it with a treat. How does a dog ever learn not to commit certain anti-social behaviours or not to do anything dangerous if the technique is just distraction?

I had two problems: a highly intelligent dog and one that couldn’t care less about treats. It was very hard as I could have been brandishing a fillet steak and he’d have shrugged and carried on. I had to develop quite a few “fierce” commands, but when he obeyed he’d get a big cuddle and much praise.

Everyone said what a good boy my dog was, but achieving that was very hard work and if I had employed only “positive” training he’d have laughed in my face and been a through delinquent.

Yes, Suggestionsplease1, the positive training falls down when it comes to a dog investigating/eating something nasty or even poisonous. A “DROP IT!” - followed by “Well done, Rover, good boy!” When he complies- is much better than dancing around trying to get Rover to eat a morsel of liver cake instead of the festering pack of old sandwiches he’s found in the park.

I would say my training is 95% or more positive - clicker, treat, praise, play, luring into place.

I will punish a self-rewarding behaviour like chasing, though I will give the dog plenty of time to learn what is expected on a longline with rewards. At the moment one dog, who has a cat fixation (except our cat, he's safe) is being given a lot of chances to walk on a loose lead past various local cats and being rewarded with praise and treats when she does so.

@IrmaFayLear

Yes, Suggestionsplease1, the positive training falls down when it comes to a dog investigating/eating something nasty or even poisonous. A “DROP IT!” - followed by “Well done, Rover, good boy!” When he complies- is much better than dancing around trying to get Rover to eat a morsel of liver cake instead of the festering pack of old sandwiches he’s found in the park.

I would question if the drop it behaviour has been proofed and learnt if it is not working.

All behaviours need to have distraction distance and duration trained into them - this is often the bit many people leave out. The dog performs a behaviour and training stops - this is just the beginning.

Back to operant and classical condititiong

That was a wait, with my rottie, leave was slightly different in that wait meant wait until I say you can, leave was not yours... but both were as well trained, as was drop and all with positive training... I’d do a picture of leave, but I never took a photo of that spelled out with biscuits, rofl.

I’ve never danced round with liver cake, ever...don’t even know why dancing keeps getting mentioned tbh.

@IrmaFayLear

Dh almost had a row with the woman who ran the local “positive training” dog class. It was far too positive!

You need to be kind, but firm. Every dog (or child!) needs to learn No Means No and not just lured away from something by bribing it with a treat. How does a dog ever learn not to commit certain anti-social behaviours or not to do anything dangerous if the technique is just distraction?

I had two problems: a highly intelligent dog and one that couldn’t care less about treats. It was very hard as I could have been brandishing a fillet steak and he’d have shrugged and carried on. I had to develop quite a few “fierce” commands, but when he obeyed he’d get a big cuddle and much praise.

Everyone said what a good boy my dog was, but achieving that was very hard work and if I had employed only “positive” training he’d have laughed in my face and been a through delinquent.

A dog that does not like treats is always hard work however all dogs have a motivation that they will work for. If can however at times be hard to find. Once found though the sky is the limit. If it is possible to get a whale to give a urine sample in a test tube through positive training I am sure we can train our dogs.

I agree all training is hard work - fun though

One of my dogs only motivation was a small hand held floor brush - I was the only person walking on the moors with a brush in my pocket but hey we had fab recall

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman

I would say my training is 95% or more positive - clicker, treat, praise, play, luring into place.

I will punish a self-rewarding behaviour like chasing, though I will give the dog plenty of time to learn what is expected on a longline with rewards. At the moment one dog, who has a cat fixation (except our cat, he's safe) is being given a lot of chances to walk on a loose lead past various local cats and being rewarded with praise and treats when she does so.

How do you punish chasing? Isn't the chase over but the time you get to punish them.

Chasing is on my control and management list until alternative behaviours like solid recall or heel work is established.

Also re aversive tools... I’ve had dogs long enough that I’ve used choke chains, I’d given up on them years before positive training was really widely known, with dogs that they did stop pulling, training what I actually wanted was still quicker and a lot of dogs just carried on pulling, but while also being really uncomfortable.

It’s one of those things you need to put lots of effort into, when she’s hassling you whilst cooking keep returning her to bed with your command treat then retreat and each time she comes out same again, you can use part of her food allowance for rewards and save any ‘good’ treats for the things you really want like recall. Some dogs learn really quick some don’t. Giving her a kong whilst you eat isn’t teaching her to stay in her bed it’s teaching her she gets a kong whilst you eat, you need to train her to stay in her bed when you set the table, same way as with the harassing you whilst cooking using bed command and treats then once she’s getting it treat every second time and space it out until she just does what you’ve asked might take a few days or more. Choose your commands and stick to them, don’t confuse her and be as consistent and positive (lots of praise etc when she does it) as you can.

We recently lost our ex guide dog pup, (@12) but he was trained like this, very positive and he was brilliant such a good boy and looking to get another dog in the new year, I’m prepared for it to be hard work Lots of repetition and some frustration, I find being very calm and setting aside the time to work on each stage that you’re struggling with. It’s rewarding in the end, our dog stayed with us but had another who did go on to be a wonderful guide dog and board others whilst they train. Your behaviourist can help eventually though with anything really not changing.

How do you punish chasing
It's not easy at the time: you can holler at the dog and praise a stop or recall. Generally, though, after the fact, it's boot camp.

Boot camp involves being on a longline: lots of stops and recalls and constant handler focus. If the dog decides to chase, you have the line and they will come to an abrupt stop. Off the line, I reprimand the very thought, and reward the dog stopping or returning to me.

I've known highly trained dogs (not mine, they have never reached those dizzy heights) with stellar basic obedience (stay, off-lead heel, recall, stop, directional work) take off after hares at field trials. Boot camp for them, too.

It takes huge skill to train a dog really well (I am not in that class, not by a long way) and different dogs have different drives and need different handling.

The thing is different dog breeds have different “weak” points. They’re not really weak points, though, it’s just what they have been historically bred to do. So a terrier will chase the cat, a beagle will take off after a good smell and not hear a darn thing, and a King Charles Spaniel will want to snooze and think a vigorous walk sounds like hell on earth. Sometimes people just don’t suit their dog!

I think that many dogs are a lot smarter than we give them credit for. My dog was banned from ds’s bedroom because of all his “figures” (yes, well...). Dog absolutely respected this. But if I came home more likely than not I’d hear furious scurrying down the stairs and dog would be in his bed looking as if butter wouldn’t melt but with an Ewok hidden under his paws.... I so miss my lovely (naughty) boy

Prong collars are a useful tool with the right method and the right dog. They are still used by many and we are not cruel for doing so.

That depends how you define cruel, I suppose.

My dog is a serious barker. His instinct makes him bark at every sound, without a second’s warning. My instinct is to shout at him to stop. It doesn’t work but I cannot bear the cacophony of ear splitting noise a hundred times daily. Nothing, absolutely nothing I have tried, stops him.
Has anybody ever succeeded in quieting a Jack Russell?

Hovverry Your're right, shouting won't work, he probably thinks you're barking along with him and it'll just make him bark more.

My dog is from a very barky breed, not because she's a terrier, she isn't, she's just a very yappy sort of breed.

I have managed to train her not to bark all the time, and in fact, she doesn't bark much at all now.

Choose a word and when he's barking wait till he stops, use the word and treat him. Keep doing that and gradually work it so that when he barks you use the word and then treat him when and if he stops.

No idea if that's a good way to go about it but it worked very well for my dog.

She can have a bit of a bark when someone rings the door bell but will stop when I tell her to 'calm down' - that being the phrase I use, obviously - and the same if there's noise outside when she's in the garden.

It wasn't quick or easy and took time and consistent effort on my part, barking being such a rewarding thing for dogs, but it can be done.

I'm sure there's probably a lot of information online as well on how to train dogs not to bark so much.

Oh, meant to say, keep your voice very low and calm as that in itself will have a calming effect on your dog.