Dog training confusion

[Hyperfish101]

It’s been a while since I had a dog. Our new rescue has some issues that need to be addressed. I am awaiting an appointment with a behaviourist. In the meantime my perusal of online sites has left me confused. Training is very anti-aversive. I get we want to build trust not fear but honestly I am surprised at some of the approaches. Everything is positive reinforcement but I feel I will end up with a dog addicted to treats! Even after a few days she hassles me for them. Also it’s hard to ignore bad behaviour. Surely it’s fine to say ‘no’ in a fierce voice? I’m all for a calm approach but even toddlers are told off occasionally?

I find it all very confusing.

@SepticTankYank I think it's clear that your approach and my approach to dog training are worlds apart. I'm definitely okay with not doing what you do.

@MysteryParcels back at you. I'm not going to dance around to get my dog to stop barking when I could just say no. They're not going to crack from such an offensive word.

@tabulahrasa yes that's true. I'm not harsh. Far from it. Maybe I'm more positive than I think 😉 they are by far, the best breed. We couldn't bear to have another after our first loss. The new pup has such big shoes to fill anyway but if he were the same breed and looked alike, there would be unfair comparisons made.

Interesting thread, we've used a 99% positive training mentality with our dog and it's worked well.

That said he has been told off occasionally when he has been very naughty! For example he growled and barked at the cat randomly and unprovoked, this resulted in being told 'no' in a loud voice and being put outside for a bit.

He's not done it since 🤷‍♀️ but we did follow up with a zero tolerance approach to any hint of aggression/chasing of cats which was reward based ie when he ignored the cat he got a treat....

What dog do you have @MysteryParcels ?

🤣 I don't dance around for my dog unless I'm playing with her and I've already said no is in my vocabulary.

Hell would freeze over before I used dominance techniques like rolling a dog, or prong collars.

Current dog is a rescue heinz 57. Fuck knows what she is. She's bloody intelligent though too bloody intelligent for her or my own good sometimes

I’ve never danced either, lol

Most people say no tbh, it just comes out... it’s only an issue if you’re expecting a dog to understand the concept of no. It’s quite an abstract word, sometimes it means don’t do what you’re planning to, sometimes it means stop doing what you’re already doing, sometimes it means not with that, sometimes it means not there...

Like I say, I adjust for the dog. I don't roll this one for dominance. I roll to teach him a trick and he got pissed off so I stopped.

If I were to dance my dogs would just die of embarrassement - maybe that is the way forward

Even security dogs are no longer trained with the shout and scream, and roll, prong collar ways anymore SepticTanlYank . If prong collars worked it should not matter if your collar is broken your dogs should know the behaviour you want without you needing to pull on it.

Punishment never works. It may initially stop something but that will not last I love this and could discuss for hours. Our prisons are full of repeat offenders - punishment does not work. Think about it - if you were to randomly be offered £100.00 for travelling under 30 mph or given a ticket for going over 30mph which would be more effective?

Interestingly studies have shown being given the random reward over the punishment is way more effective.

Punishment will create a temporary change in behaviour but not change to a learned behaviour - which in dog training is what we are aiming at.

This is all so interesting. Thanks for the comments.

My 2 main issues are dog air snapping for attention or mouthing our ankles. (Suspect not trained out of puppy behaviour) and hassling us at mealtimes.

I can get her to her bed, Male her stay in it with a Kong while we eat but as soon as Kong gone she is back!

It’s hard work!

I don't want my dog to be scared of what might happen or be on edge at home. I want him to know what behaviours are appreciated. And to do that it's got to be positive for him. He can do a number of 'tricks' now and doesn't expect a treat after. Sometimes though he might get one. He just associates doing what is asked with a good feeling, which has come about from treating heavily when learning a 'trick'.

I do say 'no' but more as a warning to not do something. If he's decided to sniff something nasty looking on a walk I automatically might say 'no' but that's followed up quickly with 'leave it'. The no is for my sake really. The 'leave it' is telling him the appropriate behaviour.

How can a dog understand fully what no means when we use it so much. I wouldn't use 'no' after a behaviour I didn't want as how would that help the dog understand what I was talking about?

For lead walking he does still pull in new places. I stop walking. When he realises he's not getting where he wants and turns to look at me I will say 'good' and then when I have his attention we move on. Only when he has been walking with me nicely does he then get a 'treat'. There's no point me shouting and getting cross with him for pulling when he's doing lots of behaviours. Which one is he getting the 'no' for? He's got to guess. This way he's learning that pulling gets him nowhere. But walking with me gets him good stuff AND he moves forwards.

I know someone who uses negative methods for pulling and all that happens is their entire walk is taken up with angry shouting and pulling back hard on the lead.

Also we had a cat when I was a child. He got sprayed with water when scratching the settee. As someone else said, he just stopped scratching the settee when people were about.

@ViperBugloss as I said

I also use a prong collar. It's broken at the minute so am using a harness. I also don't think prong collars are a permanent fixture if used correctly.

So no, it doesn't matter that it's broken. He has learnt how he should walk. I have also said I don't shout, scream or roll at this dog so your point is moot.

Prong collars are a useful tool with the right method and the right dog. They are still used by many and we are not cruel for doing so.

And I regularly dance with my dog. He puts his paws on my shoulder or round my waist and we move around together. But I never dance around him. He knows he is safe here.

Punishment never works
I'd dispute that: it's exactly how electric fences work. A horse can have a wonderful grassy paddock, fresh water, a tree for shade and to lean against for a scratch, but it's a horse, so it would rather like to roam. If it's never seen an electric fence before it will nose it... Get zapped. Go and nose it somewhere else... Get zapped again. Maybe try a third time... Get zapped. Never try the fence again. Of course some horses are either stubborn or a bit thick and will give it another go later, but for the vast majority, it works. It's how you can control the grazing for a laminitic pony, moving the electric fence a few feet along each day to allow access to fresh grass.

Aversives are one of the ways animals learn. It's how dogs learn not to jump from stupid heights (they tried it once and it hurt) or take on the family cat (it scratched them once or twice). That's not say aversives are the only way or the best way to train dogs, but saying that punishment never works is not supported by reality. Nature punishes animals all the time. My oldest dog once got into a field where I didn't know the cows were out. He got a single kick to his shoulder, enough to lame him for a few days. He has never willingly got close to cattle since.

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman I've known many a horse to blow through an electric fence like it wasn't there - especially when they learn a rug stops a lot of the zapping.

Aversives teach dogs fear. They don't jump from heights because they're scared of pain. Same goes for the cat and the cows. Fear of pain. This is how you get fearful or reactive dogs in the wrong hands. Celebrating a dog not doing something because they're now afraid of it isn't right.

Punishment and consequences are different things...

That fence is zappy, cats are pointy is very different to the person doesn’t like when I do that...

It’s not that punishments can’t work, it’s that they’re not as effective for learning and can be unpredictable.

I’ve had more than one rescue dog who arrived having learned not to toilet where people could see them... they hadn’t learned to only do it outside because they were punished for going inside, just that it was the person that’s the problem.

Punishment will not teach a new or corrected behaviour - ever. It may stop a behaviour in the short term.

Hence wear a prong collar dog may not pull on the lead as it hurts but remove prong collar dog will pull on the lead . alternative method reward dog for walking next to you, dog chooses to walk next to you (in simple terms - takes a bit more motivation for some dogs!)

Shout at a dog for weeing in the house dog wees where you cannot see you to stop shouting but has no idea that weeing is what is causing the shouting. Alternative method reward and praise dog for weeing in garden - dog chooses to wee in garden.

Dog barks and rushes to the front door when door bell rings, owner shouts at dog and pulls back from door. Dog will always run faster and quicker to get to the door before the owner. Alternative method ring doorbell and ggive yummy treat in dogs bed. When door bell rings dog will rush to bed for treat.

Everyone is happy, blood pressure is low and goals achieved

@Hyperfish101

This is all so interesting. Thanks for the comments.

My 2 main issues are dog air snapping for attention or mouthing our ankles. (Suspect not trained out of puppy behaviour) and hassling us at mealtimes.

I can get her to her bed, Male her stay in it with a Kong while we eat but as soon as Kong gone she is back!

It’s hard work!

So air snapping for attention. Hard to say without seeing the situation but this would be ignored by me. Say nothing walk away. The minute I see calm behaviour reward.

Mouthing at ankles - I guess something happens to make this start? Boredom, tired, you are busy doing something else.

I would probably work on control and management of this so if mothing at ankles happens when I am busy doing things ignoring the dog - I would remove dog to another location before I started maybe with a chew.

Hard to say without more context.

But shouting at the dog or saying no will feed both of these behaviours, they have your attention - hey mouthing and snapping gets me involved.

Re kong in her bed - I would call that a distraction rather than training. It would not matter where the kong is the dog would be there.

I would be working on rewarding the dog for being in the bed. A trainer will show you in rl which will be much easier to understand than my comments.

But reward the dog for a down in the bed. To start with reward frequently. I would also whilst training throw treats away from the bed so the dog makes the decision to go back into the bed and lie down jabkpot this decision.

Dog is learning lying down in my bed is great.

Overtime when the behaviour is happening frequently, you can then take longer to reward the behaviour, sometimes leave a longer gap then reward really quickly. During the day whenever your dog is in his bed drop treats in - this is not something you will have to do for ever just whilst they are learning the behaviour.

The difference between the dog choosing to go to the bed and being lured into the bed for the Kong is key. By choosing to go to the bed the behaviour is learnt and will be more long lasting. By luring if you stop the kong the dog will think no point as I dont get my kong.

Learnt behaviour is sustained behaviour.

I coiuld rabble on about operant and classical conditioning here but if you are interested have a google.

Thanks! I have a psychology degree so you might think I would get it more easily! Good old Pavlov!

When dog goes to bed she gets treat. I give her the Kong as a special treat because it lasts longer. So she’s already in bed when she gets it. Is this OK?

Air snapping and ankle mouthing is excitement usually or attention seeking. Trying to ignore.

@ViperBugloss have you used a prong collar? That's not how it works. They are a training method not a permanent fixture. They learn that pulling hurts. They stop. They learn not to pull. The prong collar is removed. They still don't pull.

I read somewhere that you can train a dog in compete complete silence, just hand signals and occasionally a trat. You use facial expressions and touch as well for reward. I've done it with a very trainable, always looking at me for guidance dog (dog is insecure/ nervous will pick up emotions from the tone of voice aswell as being scared of loud, sudden noise.)
It's a fantastic way to train a dog but it's not suitable for all dogs!
I think your average dog is ok to learn that a sharp leave/ no command means exactly that. It's a way of stopping your dog eating poison, running into the road or raiding someone's picnic. Your dog will know better than thinking you are going to hurt him in any way shape or form!

I have to say, the dogs are not scared of the cat - one often snuggles up with him. The dog kicked by a cow is not exactly scared of cows either, just wisely cautious. He will walk closely past cows if he's on the lead and they're just the other side of the fence, no problem.

And yes, some horses will bust electric fencing, but many don't. Most sheep don't, unless it's falling down.

I walk my dogs on slip leads and I have read that correcting a dog on a slip lead will eventually teach it to fear the slip lead. This is categorically bullshit, if you use the lead sensibly. I hold the lead open and say to my dog, lead on, and she eagerly sticks her head through it. I'm sure if I was a bastard with the slip lead, and regularly half-strangled her with it and yanked her around, she'd learn to fear it, but as it is, the odd mild aversive is neither going to reduce her to a quivering wreck or destroy the bond she has with me.

I would agree that shouting at a dog, especially one that is already over-excited, is counter-productive, and that rewarding a dog lying quietly makes perfect sense and is IME very effective.

Ignoring until extinction will take a really long time to achieve the goal compared to appropriately used mild aversives, most of the time.

It depends on the situation and the dog. I also use a slip lead which many would consider a mild aversive because it was uncomfortable when he pulled as a younger dog. However when I grab the slip lead my dog is in ecstacy as he knows he is going for a walk and willingly puts his head through it. He also looks back at me when we are walking off-lead and he spots a dog he is not certain about up ahead and then waits for me and quickly angles his head through the loop, as he wants to be on his slip lead next to me when we go past.

He is certainly firmly told 'come here' or 'get off' or 'go and lie down' with a low voice by me when he is doing something he shouldn't. (He pays attention to my pitch and he knows the command is because he is doing something I am unhappy about) I will often follow up his follow-through with a 'good boy' after to reinforce his good behaviour in paying attention to my command - but the correct behaviour started off with the mild aversive. Ignoring the bad behaviour would not work as whatever it is is obviously a rewarding activity in and of itself to him. Distracting probably would work, but he may possibly still make positive associations with whatever the original behaviour was.

The mild aversive in terms of tone of my voice works because we have a good bond and he trusts me and wants to please me. It is not pleasant for him to know that I am not happy with him.

All that said I would consider myself 95% positive in terms of training.

A good way to stop unwanted behaviours is to teach them in pairs. Eg, when my dog was young I wanted to stop him barking uncontrollably. So first I taught him to bark on command - 'Speak' and then I taught him to 'be quiet'...he found it easier to grasp 'be quiet' after mastering 'speak'. Same with 'Get up' which I taught before 'Get off' when he was location guarding on sofas and beds.

[quote SepticTankYank]@ViperBugloss have you used a prong collar? That's not how it works. They are a training method not a permanent fixture. They learn that pulling hurts. They stop. They learn not to pull. The prong collar is removed. They still don't pull. [/quote]
Many years ago when I was starting out as police dog handler we used choke chains - the police have seen the light and now use reward based training. Some police dogs still wear chains but that is to stop them being cut off by the public/criminals.

I now work mainly with scent and tracking dogs and they are all reward based trained. We do not need or want to inflict pain on our dogs when other ways are effective and long lasting.

@suggestionsplease1

A good way to stop unwanted behaviours is to teach them in pairs. Eg, when my dog was young I wanted to stop him barking uncontrollably. So first I taught him to bark on command - 'Speak' and then I taught him to 'be quiet'...he found it easier to grasp 'be quiet' after mastering 'speak'. Same with 'Get up' which I taught before 'Get off' when he was location guarding on sofas and beds.

Ok so how does this work to stop barking if you are not there?