Anyone watching this terrible dog training programme?

[Ariaty]

Terrible trainer using adversive training.

Well yes but I actually said I was training ‘down’ which is the behaviour I want.
But as that is acknowledging a ‘bad’ behaviour, it goes against the theory of ignoring unwanted behaviour.

I think the theory is that you are rewarding their last behaviour - so they see you rewarding the down itself not the fact they jumped up. We were taught to get someone to approach our dogs and if they jumped up to take a step back. Repeat until dog doesn't jump up then reward.

As in @Nojeansplease. I don't think you doing anything wrong - you're not giving attention by asking for a down - you are asking for a different behaviour and rewarding.

Sorry, what I meant is that you're not giving attention to the 'bad' jumping up, you're giving attention for the good getting down/lying down. .

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks all
I don’t think I am either
But op thought we should ignore all unwanted behaviour
I was explaining that I don’t ignore jumping - an unwanted behaviour - and I think that’s ok

In that case do you all agree with op that this trainer uses aversive methods? Or isn’t a very good trainer?

For example in the ‘down’ example, I don’t care what he does - as long as he isn’t jumping on people. If that’s sit, walk away, lie down, I’m ok with all of that.

Just to agree with the other poster who said you're not training a specific behaviour with your down, you're training the same as a no. It might or might not be successful for you, because as others have said, training the absence of a thing is much harder than to train an alternative thing. Id add that in your case, the undesirable thing has to have already happened for them to do the desirable thing - whereas if you trained an alternative behaviour like stand or sit or go to your bed when excitement happens, that would the the thing they did first, not jump up.

Buuuttt... I'm also a believer in you do you, and if it's working for you and your dog then crack on!

I read recently that the term "No" is an interrupter to a behaviour, and I like that definition, it makes sense to me. My dog hears no from me quite a lot, she's young and lots of things are appealing to be chewed, for example. She has toys she is allowed to chew but she isn't yet always choosing them when she wants to chew if the sofa cushion is closer so I'll say no which stops her from chewing the sofa and she looks up at me, then I'll hand her one of her toys which, maybe 9 times out of 10 she'll happily play with instead of the sofa.

@Nojeansplease. I think it's more that I'm not explaining very well! Hopefully PP can explain what I'm trying to!

I watched this programme the other night too and have done a few times before. I generally do like this guy but I got really nervous, (and I think he did too) when he faced down the Great Dane that was trying to get to the window. The dog got really aggressive. Reminded me far too much of Cesar Milan.

Far more sensible to teach the dog to respond to “go to your May/bed/spot” than get into a physical stand off with a huge dog like that. (Or any dog really)

May= mat

I watched this programme the other night too and have done a few times before. I generally do like this guy but I got really nervous, (and I think he did too) when he faced down the Great Dane that was trying to get to the window. The dog got really aggressive. Reminded me far too much of Cesar Milan.

Crazy, honestly there are so many decent trainers out there.

@TheFoxAndTheMole I will actually use a preemptive ‘down’ and that prevents the jump. Down basically means don’t leave the ground. But that’s not catchy. I think people are getting hung up on our understanding of the word down
But as PP have said
I could be shouting ‘cakes!’ For all he cares.

@WireBrushAndDettolMaam that part was crazy!
They were teaching the dog to go to its bed though right?

We just say bed and chuck treats on it for our puppy when the door goes.
Seems so much less confrontational for everyone involved!!

That said, I don’t think that part was cruel to the dog still, just not needed at all

I watched it, didn't think it was too bad. Most of the time he just gave the owners advice on consistency and body language.

Dog hogging the sofa- don't let it on the sofa, get it a nice bed to lay on.
Dog barking out the window - don't let it have access to the window

The french bulldog that wouldn't let anyone leave the house was solved pretty quickly by just getting the owners to change their energy - common sense to most but when you are at your wits end like the owners were, you don't tend to think rationally.

They were teaching the dog to go to its bed though right?

They were teaching “bed” when the dog tried to get up between them on the sofa. I can’t for the life of me understand why he didn’t also teach it to keep the dog off the windowsill!

That said, I don’t think that part was cruel to the dog still, just not needed at all

No it wasn’t cruel at all. Potentially dangerous for the trainer and owners if they tried it. It was the whole physical dominance and “he knows the look on my eyes means I’m serious” stuff that made me think of CM.

There was one episode where the owners had a basset hound that would climb onto the sofa and then from there onto the kitchen worktop and get aggressive when asked to get down. I didn’t understand why they didn’t just move the sofa.

I didn't watch the program but a dog trainer I know and respect was complaining about it on Facebook. She made it sound like the was a lot of aversive training going on in the program. Shouted NO and yanking the dogs around - apparently one in that episode got bitten for taking the advice of the trainer?

I'm I'm two minds about the ethics of an aversive No. I rather suspect my own dog trainer (we go to a weekly class) trains me like her dogs(!), she doesn't give me any attention or feedback on me saying no, but every piece of advice follows the ignore and replace rule of thumb. When I first got this dog I didn't know any better and a couple of times shouted and growled at her. She cowered and I felt bad because although I wanted a well behaved dog I want a good relationship with my dog, not a dog who is scared of me. I definitely don't do that any more, my "dmr" is fairly consistent, but I do still use a calm and quiet and elongated "nooo" as ive described. Whether I'll come around to not using a no as an interrupter, I guess time will tell.

I try to think like the animal interacting with another of their own species. Dogs definitely have a "No" amongst their own kind. If I were a dog would I want to be around a boss who was quick to say "NO! FUCK OFF YOU ARSEHOLE!!" and yank my collar often, in a loud and scary way? Or would I be happier with a boss who mostly praised me for the stuff I got right, and occasionally quietly said "hmm no actually not like that. Here, let me show you what I did want."?

Of course I'm still wrangling the fact that might I prefer even more a boss who ignored what I did wrong but encouraged me to do right? I stil genuinely don't know if I'm anthropomorphising too much there, or if actually I'd like to know when I'm it doing it wrong - I think I would. I have a lot of time for my current boss, she's lovely and she without realising shapes our behaviour by only offering what she wants not pointing out what she doesn't. Equally the only times she frustrates me is when I know she's pussy footing around a delicate subject and I'd much rather she was direct with me! We have another boss who tries but falls a lot shorter of the mark, and he is stressful as hell to work for. We get a lot of "no" in the form of "hmm, I didn't mean for you to do it that way, here's what I want next time" and it has resulted in a lot of stress because somehow despite his best efforts to communicate goals clearly and our best attempts to fulfil them, we always seem to displease him and it never seems good enough. There's no surface "No" or aversive from him, but we all perceive the thinly veiled aversive anyway.

I guess what I'm really mulling over is that my own experiences with humans a well as with animals are causing me to reflect on how to be the owner my pets want me to be, although I'm also very aware that human experience and cognition is not the same as doggy. 40 years ago I had lovely ex gundogs who were certainly trained with aversives both before and since I got them, and they still genuinely seemed happy non-stressed members of the family. Since then training and learning theory has moved on and I wouldn't dream of using aversives like was acceptable back then - I guess we can all only do the best we can with the tools we have got.

Basset Hound episode is the only one we've watched (we have a basset). I was also really confused as to why they didn't just move the sofa, it was also really upsetting to see the dog being aggressive as it's completely against breed type (big lovable softies).

I guess we can all only do the best we can with the tools we have got

Absolutely!

@TheFoxAndTheMole this is how I try to think about it too!

The only reasons I’ve heard to not say no are
It’s not an instruction

Agreed - but it’s human error and using it as an interrupter before an instruction is probably ok

And dogs are family and we want them to feel safe and secure
Agreed - but so are my children and I say no to them! And equally if he was still with his mother/other dogs im sure he’d hear the odd ‘no’ equivalent from them too!

it was also really upsetting to see the dog being aggressive as it's completely against breed type (big lovable softies

Any dog can be aggressive though. A lot depends on upbringing but poor genetics and breeding lines also play a huge role in it all.

Learning by the "don't do that" method is bonkers frustrating for your dog because it's hard to guess what is wanted instead. There is an activity you can do in which you try to 'train' a human partner to do something by not telling them what it is and just using the word "no" when they get it wrong. Try it. It'll drive both of you mad within minutes.

What a fantastic analogy! I’m going to tell my dog trainer about that one, if she hasn’t heard it already.

Try it!

Not only does it drive you mad, it also demotivates you to try at all. Before long you just sit there, looking blank and then "I don't know what you bloody want!" comes shooting out of your mouth. If you keep at it, eventually you feel like thumping the 'trainer'

Of course, there is also the 'risk' that your dog learns to say NO back ...

I think I might try the "no" experiment on DH next time I hear him following the toddler around bleating no :o :o

I should think the lead yanking is considered aversive, it must be uncomfortable if not actually painful to a dog.

If you watch a bitch with a litter at around 6 - 8 weeks whilst they are becoming independent, she "tells them off" when she doesn't like what they are doing - which is how they learn to socialise. She doesn't use positive reinforcement or treats!

Saying no to a dog is not the same as using a choke chain, or rubbing its nose into an accident.