Should I report this breeder to the RSPCA?

[cavymama]

Hello all. First of all I know I’ve done a list of things wrong with this breeder, I wasn’t anywhere near thorough enough, and honestly after my experience I’ll probably never buy another puppy again.

Also, this is a long one, apologies!

When I was looking for my dog (cavalier KC spaniel) I knew to look for a kennel club dog to ensure the breeder was legitimate, so when I came across a litter that wasn’t KC registered but the breeder assured us she could register the puppy we wanted for an extra £300, we thought that was fine. The total we paid for him was £1300, and he was sent home with a vaccination/worming/fleaing record. She told us she’d send his kennel club papers in a few weeks when she got them.

The second we got him home he had diarrhoea in our garden. When it hadn’t stopped after a few days we took him to the vet for a stool sample test, and it turns out he has SIX different infections (4 parasites and 2 bacterial). All the time we’d been texting the breeder worried and she’d been assuring us he just had a nervous tummy. The vet has told us it’s really unusual to see this many things come back positive from a stool sample.

We’ve treated the roundworm, he’s on antibiotics for his giardia, and we’re going to the vet later today to pick up the next round of medication for his campylobacter. The diarrhoea hasn’t stopped yet, it’s been 2 weeks constant of that now, and I’m really worried about my dog. It’s also been incredibly draining to spend 2 weeks constantly cleaning up diarrhoea at all hours of the night and day.

So far in tests and meds we’ve spent £350, as his insurance hasn’t kicked in yet. The vet has warned us that because he’s had all these ‘preexisting conditions’ insurance might become more expensive in the future.

On top of all that, my fiancé has contracted the dog’s cryptosporidium and has been very ill stuck in the bathroom for the last few days.

I’m starting to wonder that these kennel club papers aren’t coming and that she was lying about them, and that she was lying about his mum’s heart testing too.

I haven’t confronted the breeder about all of this yet, I don’t want to go in all guns blazing as I still need to get the kennel club papers off her, but I really think it’s appropriate that she pays our vet bills, given that she sent him home to us ill. I’m also thinking that she should probably be reported to the kennel club and/or RSPCA.

What do I message her? The last texts were her telling us his diarrhoea was nervous stomach and not to worry. How do I approach this?

KC reg pups get 5 weeks' free insurance via the KC. This sound very much like a backyard breeder who doesn't know what she is doing. I do hope your pup's conditions clear up soon .

Definitely report using the details in tabulahrasa’s link, these people are no more than criminals. I would report to HMRC as well, make a lot of trouble for them

Please use the info on the Cariad link as above.
You've been well and truly scammed.

You will never see KC papers but that is truly the least of your worries.

Do you even have evidence pf microchipping?

Your poor, poor puppy.

The RSPCA won’t do a thing. I reported a ‘breeder’ who was regularly breeding and selling diseased and unhealthy kittens bred from parents with congenital defects. Most of the kittens she sold died within a few weeks of being collected. Many died with the ‘breeder’ and she never once sought any vet help for them when they were having seizures etc.

The RSPCA inspector told me they had received over 50 complaints about her this year but they could not prove she made the kittens sick or knowingly sold them sick so they closed the case. I cancelled my direct debit to them that day.

surely I should at least let her know about it so she can test her own dogs and tell the other puppy buyers?
Either they are not her own dogs, or not her puppies. As you are now aware there's no chance you could have an animal in your house with that combination of parasites and infections and not be aware of it.
My guess is that if you continue to question her you'll find yourself rapidly blocked, and if you go back to the house you will find she 'no longer lives there'.
Concentrate on getting your puppy well and reporting these people.

Ok, an update. I’ve been messaging the breeder and she got back to me, the mother IS kennel club registered, she sent a picture of her documents. I know I should have asked for proof when I picked my pup up but I’ve seen it now at least.

To everyone insisting this was a puppy farm - surely if the mother is KC she can only have one litter a year, so that isn’t a puppy farm? I know there were litters 4 weeks apart, but that was from another KC bitch, so that would have been her only litter of the year too... that’s not farming is it?

I’m not trying to defend this breeder. I’m suspicious of her, which is why I started the thread. But my worry was that the puppies were allowed around dirty water or got in contact with an infected dog or something, and that’s how they picked up the bugs. I don’t see any evidence it was a puppy farm. The mum is KC and I have docs of the pup’s vet checks, vaccines, worming, flea-ing and chip. That’s why his stool test results came as such a shock. I know half the people on this thread seem to think I bought a mangy puppy at a car boot sale but that wasn’t the case at all.

KC reg doesn’t mean one litter a year.
And even if it does that’s a lot of puppies from one bitch. Awful.
And yes it’s farming. A decent breeder would never have pups so close together. It’s too much work to look after two litters properly. They’re only in it for the cash.
You bought a puppy farmer dog from a disreputable breeder.

“To everyone insisting this was a puppy farm - surely if the mother is KC she can only have one litter a year, so that isn’t a puppy farm? I know there were litters 4 weeks apart, but that was from another KC bitch, so that would have been her only litter of the year too... that’s not farming is it?”

Yes, it is...

Good breeders don’t hope they can get away with not registering a litter so they can squeeze another one out of a bitch later and register that one, they don’t let their bitches have litters weeks apart because 1 litter is hard enough to look after properly.

KC registration is literally nothing to do with puppy farming or not, puppy farmers use KC registered dogs because they can charge more - like your breeder is.

“But my worry was that the puppies were allowed around dirty water”

The most obvious scenario is - they were being kept somewhere with all those bugs and parasites and brought to the house specially to be seen...

Did you see the mum of the other set of puppies when you went the first time?

A lot of people have said that sometimes puppies are shown with bitches that aren’t their mother or are shown in a location they weren’t raised in - how do I check for that when viewing puppies? I thought I’d avoided that, because the puppies were sat with their mother, who was grooming them, and she had teats that looked like she’d had a litter. The puppies were interacting familiarly with the family’s other dog too. One of the breeder’s kids even said something about sneaking them bits of sausage that made me think they’d been raised in the kitchen I saw them in.

@shockers we did yes, we saw both bitches both times.

surely if the mother is KC she can only have one litter a year, so that isn’t a puppy farm?

They can only register one litter a year, if they manage to sell unregistered pups to owners who don't care enough to do their homework they can squeeze another litter out of the bitch. If the breeder was legit the pups would have been registered in time for you picking up and you would have been given 4 weeks insurance.

@fivedogstofeed yes he’s chipped, the breeder scanned him to show us and the vet checked it too. We also have evidence of his vaccines, vet checks and worming.

I wouldn’t buy a pedigree without going through the breed club and thoroughly researching the breeder. I would expect a reference to be asked for and I wouldn’t be surprised if they did a home check. I would be signing a detailed contract.
You really haven’t looked into this.

Where is the vet who did the microchip and vaccines etc - local to the 'breeder'? It's worth checking if this paperwork is genuine.
But please OP, not trying to knock you, but these puppies haven't just accidentally drunk some dirty water, they have been kept somewhere that is rife with infection and parasites. These are the type of infections you see in puppies that have lived in damp, dark, dirty conditions and your vet will confirm this.

Considering what vets bills can cost you I'd go the nuclear route and engage a solicitor to go in guns blazing. You need to make them fear for their home so you can get this dog returned and all your expenses covered

And you have proof that those documents belong to the mother? Puppy farms use fake mothers that usually are KC reg. The real mothers aren’t locked somewhere in an appalling state probably pregnant again.

The bitch being KC registered doesn't mean that she can only have one litter a year.

The litters are restricted when the breeder is registered as a KC assured breeder.

Can I ask where you found out about this breeder?

Don't let your insurance expire.
New policies most often do not cover pre existing or conditions resulting from, you've got a big list now already so keep in mind.
Even if renewal is expensive you already know the breeder didn't treat the pup with cheap, preventative medicine so assume all other health claims are lies.

OP - having a copy of worming/jab paperwork is utterly irrelevant. I've known puppies who have come with forged documents that are nothing to do with them. Anyone can make up a certificate online to say a dog has been seen by a vet - it doesn't mean that the dog you get is healthy.

I know you feel bad and I don't want to make you feel worse but there are so, so many alarm bells in your post, yet you went ahead anyway and gave £1300 to, at best, a backyard breeder who's churning out unhealthy puppies and couldn't give a flying fuck about their well-being.

Now you have a sick puppy who has a host of pre-existing conditions, who's probably going to cost you a small fortune in vets bills as a result, and the "breeder" will just continue producing puppies and get away with it because people still refuse to do their research and refuse to walk away when the situation they're in clearly screams "puppy farm".

OP you have nothing to indicate that this was a puppy farm. So what if they had 2 litters close together? Not illegal. Yes they were probably busy which explains the late paperwork. You saw the dogs and they looked fine. This pup has become ill - did you see diarrhea or smell anything when you visited? No? Then the dogs probably weren't ill then.

If you don't get your paperwork forget the animal rights groups like Cariad and the RSPCA. Go straight to Trading Standards who have the power to deal with dodgy sellers.

OP you have nothing to indicate that this was a puppy farm

Yes, she does. She was duped into paying an extra £300 for "KC papers" that never arrived. The puppy turned up at her house with at least six infections/parasites and has already cost her £350 in medical bills. The lady had two bitches who had litters within weeks of each other.

Puppy farms are extremely, extremely good at covering their tracks. They pay people to use their homes as "front homes". Ideally these homes will be in nice areas, the family will be well-dressed and there will be children and other pets in the house. They often (not always) use a stunt bitch who is healthy and of good temperament, whereas the real mother is nowhere to be seen. They can use fake paperwork to make you believe your puppy has had health checks, jabs and worm/flea medication.

There are warning flags all over OP's posts.

No she doesn't. The papers may or may not arrive. OP says she has seen the bitch's reg papers. The £300 wasn't for the paperwork it was the difference between a pup not registered and a pup that is KC reg.

All pups can pick up diseases and parasites from anywhere. That is why it is such a bad idea for breeders to allow the public in to their premises. Any visitor could have carried infection or parasite eggs in on their shoes. That is why big farms have biosecurity. You don't go in unless you are disinfected and covered up.

Do you really imagine that a KC reg breeder is really a front for a scam puppy farm? Good try but your conspiracy theory falls at the first hurdle.

I know in hindsight how it sounds suspicious that ‘oh there’s a reason why I don’t have his kennel club papers yet, I’ll do them now’. But I’m not a naturally suspicious person and this was our impression on the day:

• she didn’t rush us to part with our cash and was happy to keep him till 11-12 weeks. She doesn’t let them go home at 8 weeks.
• she told us we could bring him back for a full refund within a week and gave us a contract saying so, so that didn’t feel money grabby
• the breeder had come well recommended by a friend with a healthy happy cavalier @crazycatgal
• she didn’t mind us coming to see him at short notice, which made he think she wasn’t assembling a fake setup, and encouraged us to visit as many times as we wanted
• we met the mother, who was affectionate with her puppies and had visible teats
• she didn’t try to meet us at a third location
• we clearly saw the puppies in their family home, I know you’re all convinced otherwise but it obviously looked like puppies lived there
• she told us a lot of info about cavaliers specifically and knew the breed well
• she asked us questions about our home and made sure we both didn’t work full time away from home, I got the impression she might not have let us take him if we had
• she gave us paperwork for all his vet stuff, I get this can be faked but why would I have accused her of that on the day
• the mum of our litter is kennel club and the other litter we saw was all kennel club
• the puppy’s eyes were bright and clear, his butt looked normal/clean, his claws were clipped neatly, his ears were clean, his nose was wet but not runny, his teeth were healthy, his fur was healthy, he wasn’t thin
• he was confidently playing with the other dogs and wasn’t nervous or weak or small, he was used to being handled too
• the breeder clearly cared about him, she talked with us for ages about foods, looking after him for the first few weeks, how best to settle him in his new home. She also offered to look after him whenever we go on holiday.

That was everything I could think of, on the day, to ask and check. It felt like a lot. Yes, I know there was more I should have asked. I should have asked to see his mums KC certificate on the day, even now that I’ve seen it some of you think I should have demanded proof it wasn’t faked somehow. I know vaccines and chip documents can be faked, but it didn’t occur to me to accuse her of that. Some of you seem to think I should have stood there and accused her of lying on every little thing, but I guess I’m not that type of person?

If it WAS a puppy farm, she did an absolutely flawless job of hiding it. It looked like the somewhat messy house of someone who’s been looking after puppies. She even got her six year old kid to lie convincingly that she’s been sneaking him chopped up sausages for treats when they were eating their dinner?

@fivedogstofeed I’ve asked my vet if we should be getting angry at the breeder based on the bugs the pup has, and she just asked if we met the mother and saw the dogs in their home and was satisfied by that. She didn’t bring up puppy farms. She said he could have gotten it from stagnant water, and asked if he’d been near sheep or horses. The breeder had a pond in the garden and was in the countryside surrounded by farmland, so not unlikely.

@Speakeasy thank you. I don’t think everyone’s accusations of puppy farm are based on a lot to be honest, especially after what the vet has told me. I also don’t think having two breeding bitches is a terrible thing. And you’re right, there was nothing to suggest illness at the home.

So at this point I’m going to tell the breeder what he’s been diagnosed with, see what she says and go from there, before I go nuclear.

To everyone who expressed concern about the pup - he’s being doing some normal, non diarrhoea poops today, hurrah! And eating and drinking lots. So the antibiotics are working their magic thankfully.