Would you choose a cocker spaniel or a cockapoo?

[Puzzlelight]

I know MN generally isn’t a fan of cross-breed dogs, but risking asking anyway

MIL is allergic to dogs, which is why we are considering a cockapoo (and I know there’s no guarantee MIL won’t be allergic to a cockapoo, but think it might be worth a try as - anecdotally - I’ve heard lots of stories where people with allergies have been fine with this cross-breed. MIL says she has a neighbour with one and thinks she’s ok with her neighbour’s dog).

I grew up with cocker spaniels. We had - all of the time I was growing up - two at once. I love the breed.

I know cockapoos can inherit their poodle-parent’s intelligence and energy, but I’m not sure whether to go for one or the other or how they tend to differ apart from that.

(I would rescue a dog, but we have very young children (youngest is a toddler) and rescue places have advised me to get a puppy as even rescue puppies can be unpredictable because of their (often) sad backstories.)

Anyway - would you choose a cocker spaniel or a cockapoo for a family dog?

But the breed club is part of the problem...

By refusing to allow outcross and instead opting to allow dogs to suffer ill health and by promoting a rigid look without prioritising temperament or work ability. Which are both more important than bloody appearance!

How can you not see how outcrossing helps pedigrees?!

Take Dobermanns.
Close to 100% have an inherited heart defect.
This means it is no longer possible to breed out the heart defect within the Dobermann breed.

In order to create a Dobermanns without the heart defect you would have to breed to a different breed and overtime you create dogs that look and behave like Dobermanns with healthy hearts.

Who cares if they have a tiny percentage of a different breed?!
Isn’t them living 15 years + instead dropping dead suddenly at 5 worth a tiny percentage of a different breed??

It’s not a tiny percentage though.
A cross breed isn’t a pedigree.
And the wolfhound club and society do all they can to promote the health of the breed.

In the beginning stages it is not tiny. But at the end stages when you have successfully created a heart defect free dobermann the percentage is tiny.

Yeah sure they do.
Remember the outcry over the GSD at Crufts?
The breed club was awarding those extreme GSDs.
We’re they acting in the best interest of the GSD breed?

What about the Saint Bernard who was featured on the crufts exposed programme?
Also highly awarded by the breed club.
Is the breed club acting in the best interest of the Saint Bernard breed?

What about Dalmatians?
Was the breed club acting in the dog’s best interest when it went crackers over Fiona who had a tiny percentage of pointer and no one without being told could guess she was anything other than a Dalmatian?

The breed clubs are a disgrace.
As are the Kennel Club.

If I was looking for a pet, a hobby breeder is where I would look.
100%.

And you keep banging on about pedigree.
All pedigrees started out as a mix of breeds!

The wolfhound has done pretty serious problems and a relatively small gene pool to begin with.

Without outcross sooner or later your beloved wolfhound will eventually go the way of the Dobermann and Cavalier.

Is that what you want?
Sickly wolfhounds that can’t be saved because they can only genetically be 100% wolfhound?!
Madness!

Hi OP, I would like to throw a miniature schnauzer into the mix for you to consider. Super friendly little dogs with bags of personality, they don't moult and are much easier to groom and maintain than poodles. Although I do love poodles too.

If I ever breed my bitch, I will be a 'hobby breeder'.
I looked very carefully at COI when we bought her (well below breed average)
I would look very carefully at COI.
I would look at hip scores
I would look at the lines feeding into the stud dog (there are lines in the breed that I would avoid).
I would talk to a breeder of that breed, who I know and trust, about what she would advise (she breeds some stellar working dogs).

Friends of mine have bred their pet dogs. They thought about COI (I know coz I asked).

Outcrossing is the only way forward for some breeds. Outcross, to get the desired trait. And backcross for four generations and bingo, you have a dog that looks like relevant breed and carries the grand total of 3.125% of the other breed. And the genetic fuck-up has gone.

It looks like the breed but isn’t. I would happily have a mongrel but it’s not a pedigree.

Never EVER ask for advice about cockapoos (or other poodle crosses) on MN. The party line is always strict: avoid. and get a rescue staffie/greyhound.

I have one, and he is the best dog ever. A well-behaved, calm, biddable people-lover. Cuddly teddy bear. Highly recommend.

And the wolfhound club and society do all they can to promote the health of the breed.

They don’t though, because by continuing to breed entirely within a very limited gene pool (particularly in a breed so plagued by serious health issues) is only going to make things worse until the breed cannot be sustained.

Already around 25% of IWs die of bone cancer and 25% are affected by DCM. That can’t be bred back from

The only way forward for all breeds is the opening of studbooks and the regular infusion of new genetic material. Without that all breeds will eventually end up like those, the IW among them, that are already circling the drain.

Like Fucksandflowers when I start looking for my next pup I’m going to be looking at hobby breeders because in my breed they, along with some breeding for work rather than show, are pretty much the only thing from keeping the average COI from sky rocketing. The vast majority of breed club recommended breeders are regularly producing litters with COIs in the 20-30% range. These aren’t one off litters either, some breeders pretty much only do high COI matings.

I don’t think my breed is unique either. One of the many issues with showing based solely on appearance is that it effectively encourages breeding for a lack of genetic diversity because that lack of genetic diversity is the most effective way to minimise physical variation.

Fucksandflowers if you’re not already a member I can highly recommend Outcross for Life on FB. It’s a group dedicated to improving the state of pedigree dogs via outcrossing programmes. It’s very interesting and there are some people doing some really amazing work, sadly too often denounced by the breed clubs or pedigree organisations.

Already on it 👍

We have a very well bred orange roan cocker spaniel. 5 months old. She is beautiful. Proving a task to train, but she is still very young. We got her from a reputable breeder in the NE of England.
I wouldn't chance a cross breed (well, wouldn't pay top dollar for one anyway)

You have a choice:
Buy Puppy A, which is a pedigree member of your favourite ever breed but which has a >50% chance of dropping dead of cardiomyopathy before it's 7
OR
Buy Puppy B, which is 97% a pedigree member of your favourite ever breed, plus a few % of summat else, and which has >80% odds of living to be 10+.

Hmm, tough one.

I have a breed I love. I love how it looks and how it behaves. But if it needed an outcross to bring down a sky-high rate of kidney stones or cancer or heart problems, or just to lengthen a bafflingly short lifespan probably connected to a high overall breed COI, I wouldn't hesitate.

@BorderlineExperimental, I'm always appalled when 'reputable breeders' produce litters with high COIs. But if you chase a particular earset, that's what will happen.

If you look at a bunch of working dogs out in the field, you'll see a great mix of shapes and sizes and types in the same breed, because they're being bred for soundness and ability.

OP, sorry for the thread hijack!

Cocker! For the simple reason it's harder to establish these designer crosses come from an ethical breeder. Plus you have to pay way over the odds. My DD pointed out to her friend she could have had a cocker & a poodle for the price of her cockapoo (and have the potential for a litter of cockapoos).

I am allergic to dog hair but my cocker spaniel (show) doesn't trigger me at all. There are loads of cockapoos round here and they are lovely too. My preference will always be a cocker but I'm not sure there would be much issue between either.

Cockapoo every time! Cockers are lively and energetic. Poodles are calmer. Cockapoos have a lovely temperament, beautiful to look at, calm and friendly. Lovely dogs.

They’re not “circling the drain”
at poodles are calmer. Really not.

In my dog training class I met 2 poodles one a miniature and one a standard. Both smashing dogs, but calm they were not!!

Give me a healthy, happy mongrel before a very expensive, sought after, puppy farmers dream "pedigree" dog that can't breathe every time.

From babyhood until now I have had cocker spaniels, Springer spaniels, several Heinz varieties, a GSD (with hip dysplasia at the grand age of 4 years) and had to be pts at 6 years old as his back legs became deformed, causing him to be lame. Now I have 2 Cockerpoos.

I have loved them all - some more than others 😉 I don't get the hate for cockapoos. I don't get why posters seem happy to point out they are a cross breed. Yes, Cockapoos owners are aware they have a cross breed. We don't care 🤷‍♀️ Call them what you like it won't alter our perception of the dogs we love.

My Cockapoos eat, shit, walk, swim, chase birds, snuggle on the sofa, sniff in the undergrowth, perform tricks, recall on a sixpence...in fact everything all my other dogs did. Out of them all the mongrels lived the longest and cost me very little in vet fees. The GSD and a Springer had health problems from a young age, were always at the vets and both died before they were 8.

They’re not “circling the drain”

You can stick your head in the sand (along with pretty much all IW breeders in this country) as much as you like but the breed simply cannot be sustained as it is.

The lack of genetic diversity (which likely contributes to the breed's woefully short average lifespan) within the IW alone would be a huge cause for concern but there's the added issue that somewhere between 25% and 50% of individuals are affected by at least one life threatening/limiting health issue. You can't breed out such pervasive health issues when there's so little genetic diversity to work with.

The IW is where the Dobermann was in the late 1980's (only with a much smaller population, even lower current genetic diversity and high rates of bone cancer to contend with as well) and we all know how well that's worked out... Unless the IW breeders do something differently to the Dobermann breeders (i.e. embrace outcrossing and work towards restoring some desperately needed depth to the breed's gene pool) the exact same thing will happen.

Not necessarily true that you know what you're getting with a breed, i meet occasionally with others of my dogs breed and they vary wildly in looks, from small skinny ones to huge chunky ones. And the two I have owned have very different temperaments. I think the best indicator of what you might get is to meet the parents.
I also think my dogs temperaments conformed more closely to their parents' than some sort of 'breed ideal'. Would definitely go for a what are the parents like (and indeed the owners for that matter) approach particularly for a dog that is going to be a family pet and not worry too much about registrations etc

II have loved them all - some more than others 😉 I don't get the hate for cockapoos. I don't get why posters seem happy to point out they are a cross breed. Yes, Cockapoos owners are aware they have a cross breed. We don't care 🤷‍♀️ Call them what you like it won't alter our perception of the dogs we love*

It isn’t the dogs as such, it’s the “fashion” aspect of them- this is driving irresponsible breeders and puppy farms, prices of these crossbreeds are double that of pedigrees without the regulation of pedigrees.

Added to that the myths about allergies, the fact that they can be lots and lots of work, their coats are a groomers nightmare...

My personal issue is they seem to have arisen out of more misconceptions that people don’t want poodles, but want all the qualities of a poodle, so think a cross will achieve that. There’s nothing bloody wrong with poodles and most people wouldn’t even recognise one in the street without a pom pom cut.

Look at kelly’s kennels if you want an idea of the cross breed industry.

It isn’t the dogs as such, it’s the “fashion” aspect of them

I got my cockapoo before they became a "fashion." I've only ever met 3 older than him. I resent the accusation that people only want one because of the "silly" name. Really? Do you really think that's how people think?

And to the poster who mentioned breathing problems - you might be thinking of pugs, not cockapoos.

With allergies I would go for the poodle. They are fabulous dogs. They look similar too without the show trim. I have allergies and we have a bichon frise. Lovely giddy dogs. Also as someone above said shnauzer and a few other breeds also are more on the low allergy side.

Why don't people want poodles apart from the whole show trim thing?