Would you choose a cocker spaniel or a cockapoo?

[Puzzlelight]

I know MN generally isn’t a fan of cross-breed dogs, but risking asking anyway

MIL is allergic to dogs, which is why we are considering a cockapoo (and I know there’s no guarantee MIL won’t be allergic to a cockapoo, but think it might be worth a try as - anecdotally - I’ve heard lots of stories where people with allergies have been fine with this cross-breed. MIL says she has a neighbour with one and thinks she’s ok with her neighbour’s dog).

I grew up with cocker spaniels. We had - all of the time I was growing up - two at once. I love the breed.

I know cockapoos can inherit their poodle-parent’s intelligence and energy, but I’m not sure whether to go for one or the other or how they tend to differ apart from that.

(I would rescue a dog, but we have very young children (youngest is a toddler) and rescue places have advised me to get a puppy as even rescue puppies can be unpredictable because of their (often) sad backstories.)

Anyway - would you choose a cocker spaniel or a cockapoo for a family dog?

adaline - definitely considering a poodle now. My idea for a cockapoo came from my love of cocker spaniels and then the need for the dog to be easy for my MIL to be around (hence the poodle cross). I don’t know any other breeds except cocker spaniels at all! I know OF them, of course, but spaniels were the dogs I had as a child and the only dogs I have experience of. Reading lots about poodles now, and they seem lovely

Poodles are fabulous! I wouldn't have thought of them either because I'm not keen on them with the silly haircuts but I hadn't realised that a lot of the dogs you see and think are cockerpoos etc may well be pure poodles with a normal haircut (same length all over without shaved muzzle, pom poms etc is literally called a "puppy cut"). Definitely look into them.

I have two cockapoos. I got my first from a rescue shelter. She was 16 weeks old. The owners dumped her in a rescue shelter within a month of buying her from a breeder because she kept nipping their 18 month old dd. Basically being a normal puppy. The second cockapoo we acquired from a neighbour. He was 5 months old. She took him for his first puppy groom and had a rollicking off the groomer because of the state of his coat. She hadn't put a brush through him in 5 months so he was matted. She didn't like the idea of

1. Having to brush him on a regular basis
2. Paying £30 every 3 months to a groomer.

I have to say I have always had spaniels. The personalities of both my cockapoos are extremely spaniel like. They are brilliant dogs. Very friendly towards people and other dogs. They love nothing more than swimming in the river/ocean/ponds and sniffing in the undergrowth. They are very easy to obedience train, as well as toilet train. My 10 year old grandson is very allergic to most dogs and cats. He is fine with these. He enjoys teaching them new tricks, which they pick up very quickly.

I didn't give a thought to owning a cross breed tbh. I am so pleased I found this very nervous, sad puppy at the rescue centre. My life has been changed.

I wouldn't ever advocate anyone buying a crossbreed, or any puppy, from a breeder unless you are certain you have done your homework.

Check out the rescue centres. There are dogs of all ages and breeds, and cross breeds and mixed breeds just waiting for a chance of a new life with people who care for them.

I think I x-posted with you slightly!

I've met some lovely cockers, poodles and cockerpoos but personally I don't see the need for the cross at all.

Fucksandflowers GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman is correct, the new law means that even one off breeders should be licensed (to theoretically stop any old person deciding to breed their pet for a quick buck) It also carries strict criteria on the amount of bitches, litters, timing of litters, welfare checks, accommodations, vet checks etc.
All licensed breeders have to have a vet inspection, and then are spot checked twice a year.

Oh right.
So how do commercial breeders operate now then?
Does that mean they aren’t eligible for licences anymore?
I’m just wondering what signs you would now have to avoid a commercial premises now that the licence requirements have changed?

Cockapoos yap. A lot.

Just throwing that into the mix...

Fucksandflowers Commercial breeders are anyone who breeds and sells the puppies. Hobbyists can be exempt if they can prove that they are breeding just to 'further their line' and generally will keep the whole litter until desired characteristics are evident, and then sell the other puppies. Its generally looked at on a case by case basis.

All other people breeding and selling at least 1 puppy in a 12 month period are now required to be licensed.
A new star rating has been introduced, I wouldn't touch anyone who doesn't have a 4 or 5 star rating. 3/4 stars means they have met the minimum guidelines, but 4/5 means they have met the higher welfare standards and are established and responsible breeders.

Personally, I would also avoid anyone selling more than 2 different breeds as ideally you want them to be passionate and knowledgeable about the breed they are selling.

Well yes but you know what I mean though when I say ‘commercial’ breeder?
I mean people who are all about the profit, lots of dogs in poor condition, no care to health or temperament etc.

I’m not sure agree with this new legislation.
I think it may make it harder to identify terrible breeders.

lots of dogs in poor condition, no care to health or temperament etc. that's what the new rating system should distinguish. All licensed breeders have minimum living standards but the higher 4 and 5 stars go beyond that in terms of accommodation size and type, enrichment etc.

The new legislation will means that those who purposely only breed 2 litters a year to stay under the radar and not have to conform to the welfare guidelines, have a vet inspection and yearly checks can no longer hide.

People will always breed for money. Sad but true. The new legislation is the best option we currently have to try and make sure the welfare is improved. Before this came in, breeders under 3 litters were getting away with all sorts of crap. Inexperienced dog owners were breeding their darling pets for a quick income 'because they could'. Now they can't (legally). Its not perfect but its a big step forwards by the government!

@Fucksandflowers I also believe that a new 'business' can only be given a maximum of 3 stars for its first year.
Not sure on the logic as to this, but I guess its to do with seeing if any problems are identified with the puppies during that year?

Cockapoos yap. A lot.
Just throwing that into the mix

Uh? Neither of my cockapoos bark, at all. Not even at the postman 🤷‍♀️

Next doors Labrador doesn't shut up. That doesn't mean all Labradors are noisy and irritating. Whether a dog barks or not is down to the owner, not the breed of dog.

I’m not sure agree with this new legislation.
I think I agree. It puts an unnecessary admin burden on people who breed the occasional litter in good faith, and is likely to reduce the number of home-bred litters, while not giving the puppy-buying public any clues as to whether their puppy is coming from a litter properly socialised in someone's kitchen, or produced in Kennel 17, Block 12.

It would be a lot more sensible if someone who was planning to breed at home was obliged to notify their local authority, pay a fee of say £50, and have a 1/4 chance of a spot check to make sure that they really were fulfilling basic guidelines like clean water, decent whelping box, outdoor exercise, up to date vet records etc.

I might breed my bitch at some point in the future, if she succeeds as a working dog. If I breed her, I'll keep a puppy. I'll sell the others (carefully, hopefully to working homes). What will that make me? Hobbyist? Commercial breeder?

GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman It certainly is a lot of admin and hassle and we charge about £400 for the license! Imo that's good though because it'll put off a lot of people who think they'll just breed for a bit of money and not necessarily have the skills to do it properly.
The 1/4 spot check still leaves potentially 3/4 not fulfilling the correct guidelines (either deliberately or unintentionally) - the new legislation means all breeders are spot checked once/twice a year.
In your case, it all depends on the individual council but I would think that you would need a breeding license.

Yeah I really don’t think I agree with it.

I know a lot will disagree with me but there are plenty of people out there who have a confident, friendly, healthy female dog of excellent temperament and breed it, once or twice to a similarly nice male and produce nice puppies that are reared in the family home being kissed and cuddled and molested by the families’ children and grow up into really lovely family pets that do exactly what they were intended to do.
For those puppies to suddenly disappear and be unavailable because those families understandably don’t want the faff of the licence, I think that’s sad.

I think that it is quite unfair to charge outstanding pedigree and/or working dog breeders £400 too when they already probably aren’t making much in the way of profit and are already potentially spending thousands on necessary health tests like heart screens, x rays for hips and elbows, eye tests etc.

I don’t think the new law will improve much welfare wise, I just think it will alienate the true ‘hobby’ home family pet breeder and irritate everyone else and make it even more difficult for puppy buyers to identify terrible breeders

I'm amused by the "my mini poodle is always being mistaken for a poodle-cross/cockerpoo" comments here. Having read so many comments on MN like that in the past, I've asked whether three poodle/cockerpoo/cavapoo-looking dogs were actually poodles in the past week. Nope, two cockerpoos and one cavapoo.

I'm going back to trusting my instincts, as I grew up with two poodles in the family and before obsessively reading these boards, I'd always correctly identified both poodles and scourge of the MN Doghouse mongrelspoodle crosses.

I agree with @Fucksandflowers. Putting such a disproportionate burden (£400 + hassle + time) onto someone who's probably looking at a few grand of profit after raising the bitch, doing any health tests, paying the stud fee, paying the vet bills and (if relevant) training the bitch is a sure-fire way of putting off people who would otherwise be producing decent home-reared litters. Surely we'd rather puppies were brought up in families rather than down in the kennel block...

This is also a great way of shrinking the gene pools of the pedigree breeds: rather than lots of bitches having one or maybe two litters, with lots of stud dogs being used, you run the risk of bitches being bred to the limit for KC registration (three litters I think) and the stud dog owned by the registered, inspected commercial kennel being used on every bitch they have. Thirty litters out of ten bitches and one stud rather than thirty litters out of 20 bitches and 15 studs. Talk about the law of unintended consequences.

My understanding was that this legislation wasn't meant to affect hobby breeders, but now it seems that it will be a postcode lottery whether it does or not. TBH a one in four chance of being inspected would probably frighten off a lot of charlatans. But £400 plus a load of confusing form filling (much of which is completely irrelevant to someone breeding a bitch at home)? That's going to put off a lot of people who would do a perfectly good job.

I hope the law does dissuade hobby breeders TBH. Few have any idea of the specific tests recommended for their breed. They don’t know about genetics or research pedigrees. I also think “my dog is nice” is not a very good reason to breed. And doubt such breeders can select and support puppy owners (and take pups back if they ever need to be returned.)

I hope the law does dissuade hobby breeders TBH. Few have any idea of the specific tests recommended for their breed. They don’t know about genetics or research pedigrees. I also think “my dog is nice” is not a very good reason to breed. And doubt such breeders can select and support puppy owners (and take pups back if they ever need to be returned.)

You could however argue that the need for genetic health tests has largely come about though by pedigree breeding in the first place.
Strict adherence to ‘purity’, keeping the gene pools too small.
Many pedigree breeds are in dire straits now health wise.
Some of them, like cavaliers and Dobermanns can no longer be fixed within the breed.
Outcrossing is now necessary.
But you don’t find any KC breeder doing it.
They have to stay ‘pure’ at all costs.

It’s true that ‘my dog is nice’ is not really good enough.
However.
For a pet all you really arguably need is a confident, friendly, biddable temperament and decent health.
Most hobby family breeders produce that very successfully.

Show breeders with their KC registration and endorsements who ‘do everything right’ are well known for prioritising looks over everything else.
There are many show winning dogs with poor temperaments who are probably producing puppies with poor temperaments also.

Many registered ‘decent’ breeders don’t do anything close to the amount of health tests actually needed.

Take GSDs, their list of inheritable diseases is eye watering.
Almost all are able to be tested for but the KC only requires a tiny amount of testing and even then, asfaik it’s only a requirement for the ‘assured’ breeders.

The point about puppy take backs is true and valid.

I have known two puppies (one by then an adult dog) be taken back by the breeder. Puppy 1: rather random terrier litter, willingly taken back by breeder and kept for several months before finding a new home. Puppy 2: willingly taken back by breeder and kept for the rest of her life. Both of these breeders were 'hobby breeders' - one bred a handful of mongrel terrier litters over the course of a few decades and the other had one or two pedigree litters ever.

Of course, plenty wouldn't. But I can't see a commercial kennel being keen to be landed with a 4 year old neutered bitch, for example, either.

@Fucks is right about pets: decent temperament and decent health. I'd add to that what the science tells us: that puppies raised in puppy farms are more prone to behavioural problems as they grow up than home-reared dogs.

I'm also not sure how careful a commercial operation will be about selecting puppy buyers. Possibly more careful than some charlatan chunking out dogs purely for the dosh (since they might have a business name to protect) but probably not more careful than friends of mine who have had long chats with anyone who has wanted one of the puppies from their 'hobby' breeding - and puppies in those circumstances often go to family and friends anyway.

And 'my dog is nice' is not a great reason to breeds, but it's a much better reason than 'Right, the summer cashflow - time for another litter of bichons and two lots of cavapoos!'

And just to check with @Nesssie. That £400 fee. Would that be the same for me, breeding one litter that year and keeping one, and for someone breeding ten litters and keeping none?

KC reg or show dog breeders means nothing helpful.
To be able to breed healthy pups you need to have more than a reasonably healthy bitch.

Posted too soon!
Really good breeders look at breeding co efficient and look back at pedigrees to consider best stud dog etc. Hobby breeders don’t.
And if you outcross then it’s not a pedigree anymore. It’s a cross. Some people import dogs to breed too.
I won’t breed from my girl. I know I don’t know enough! I wish people wouldn’t be so quick to have (and sell) cute pups for no really good reason.

Although theoretically you cant guarantee anything, in reality, with a good breeder, most -poo crosses should be low to nil shedding and not set off allergies

Genetics disagrees. Take a dog with a “normal” coat, cross it with a non shedding, hypoallergenic dog, and the chances are out of 4 pups you’ll get one like each parent, and two somewhere in the middle.

I have never understood why you would take a dog with a coat you want, and cross it with one you don’t. What are people expecting? Just get the dog with the coat quality you want.

This is why so many doodleoodlepoos end up in rescue. For some reason this theory that poo crosses are somehow magically results in a puppy you won’t be allergic to.

I once saw someone insist they wanted a yorkipoo. Well they wanted a yorkie, but it had to be crossed with a poodle because allergies. Fuckwit didn’t realise that yorkies are as hypoallergenic, if not more so, than poodles.

Get a poodle o/p.

You yourself frequently advise people to look for KC registered breeders or go through the breed club (all KC breeders!)

How do you know that all hobby breeders don’t look at pedigrees and COI etc?
Do you know all hobby breeders?

Oh dear.
Most breeds desperately need an outcross!
The resultant first generation puppies are crosses but over time you can create dogs that look like the original without the health problems.
LUA Dalmatian for example.
The originals were Dalmatian x pointer.
The LUA Dalmatian now are unrecognisable from ‘pure’ defective Dalmatians.

Your own breed would benefit from an outcross but of course then they won’t be pure.
There are thank goodness a small number of wolfhound breeders outcrossing.
Sadly not in the UK where they are too breedist and hung up on purity.

Breed club yes.
KC reg is no guarantee of decent breeders at all. But breed clubs are a good place to start.
It’s buyer beware when it comes to buying a pup. Few breeders are decent. Hobby breeders generally just breed from their pets etc. They don’t scour the country for the best parents. I wouldn’t touch one with a barge pole.
Out crossing just creates a cross breed. Not sure how that helps pedigrees.