Tail docking

[Hoppinggreen]

I was in my local farm shop today and there was a sign advertising Working springer puppies with the line “tails legally docked “
I thought all tail docking was illegal unless for medical purposes (such as tail damage) am I wrong or is there a loophole for working dogs?

Hunny, the injury rate isn't 1 in 16. It's very much higher. Try looking at the stats in the study I linked to.

And science is science, whether you like it or not.

I have a docked and a non docked terrier. The docked one was intended for a working home but it fell through. I have no issues and never had a comment. In my role of work I understand docking. The number of tail injuries I see which just don't heal and result in tail amputation and then often revision surgery makes me feel docking isn't always wrong

Science is subject to funding, and the stats given earlier in the thread contradict yours.

science is science, whether you like it or not

Actually scientific studies aren't perfect or clear cut.

For example one study suggested that to prevent one working spaniel from getting a tail injury between 2-18 puppies would need to be docked.

Conversely another study said to
prevent one tail injury in working breeds approximately 232 dogs would need to be docked as puppies and to prevent one tail amputation in spaniels, 320 spaniel puppies would need to be docked.

So drastically different levels in just two studies.

Sure, Swimming, I agree that scientific results are not always clear. But we stumble forward a step at a time and the source I have given for pain perception is the most up to date one that I know.

Besides, the two studies you quote are not directly comparable. The first looked at working dogs in such a way that you could see the injury rates for docked and undocked dogs. The other looked at working breeds: not all the dogs from that sample would have been worked, it's not even clear (from what I have been able to to find) that they were all from working lines, and I've also not been able to establish what proportion of the dogs in the population used were undocked. It's obviously unreasonable to draw conclusions about the risk of tail injury to undocked dogs of a particular breed by looking at a population of docked dogs of that same breed.

Hunny, the stats given earlier were not sourced. If you could provide the source, I'd be genuinely interested.

The poster would need to do that - i'd appreciate you being more specific than 'very common' and 'much higher' tbh too

You've basically just said what I was already saying science isn't hard and fast rules because there is always flaws in the studies - hence me disagreeing with your line about science is science.

Plus unintended bias is a big issue because often the people doing the studies already have an opinion and it's very easy to subconsciously bias the results.

Also having previously worked in a data analysis role where my job was to make the figures appear good, when they weren't always, it is amazing how shifting some parameters a little can vastly alter how the statistics look. I could take the raw data used in those studies and find a way to make the statics look better or worse dependent on what I wanted the results to say.

Cruel and unnecessary, I wish the practice would die out. That said, I have a docked rescue dog, she was 11 when we got her.

Swimming
Plus unintended bias is a big issue because often the people doing the studies already have an opinion and it's very easy to subconsciously bias the results.
Unintended bias definitely cuts both ways.

And as I said, the science I used was the most up-to-date that I could find. Sooner or later the scientific method, at least in the 'harder' sciences, leads us to valid conclusions, however much people try to massage the numbers ('lies, damned lies and statistics'?). If it doesn't, we might as well stop bothering with it now.

Hunny, to save you reading my source the stats it found were:
18.5% of undocked spaniels needed vet treatment for a tail injury
20% of undocked HPRs needed vet treatment for a tail injury
That was in a single season in work. Most gundogs work for 6 to 8 seasons before being retired. This did not consider the risk to pet dogs from working lines of those breeds, which in my experience is considerable but which has never been quantified.

Warning! No science here and very little maths! Until recently, I had 3 springers. My vet, when I regularly brought them in for an injury, told me 3/4 of injuries he dealt with were springers.

Those talking about crashing through bushes, it's a spaniel thing. It's called going through cover. It's a much prized aspect in the gundogs world. They say that spaniels go straight through, Labradors go round. It's true, I've seen it time and time again.

I feel bad for my boys, they have had multiple tail injuries (worker was docked, pet bred aren't, guess which ones have had tail injuries) and one dog is on his fifth dew claw injury. Had he had his dew claws removed, that would have been a one off. Instead, he's been through five lots of split claws/suffering. There have been so many tail/dewclaw injuries that we've stopped taking them to the woods and they get training in a nice flat field instead.

If a gundog breeder didn't dock a litter, he'd have trouble selling. Then we'd lose some breeding lines and the co-efficient is already frighteningly high in the UK.

Yes, tradition is an entrenched part of docking, of course it is, BUT it also has a practical application and I'd bet on a vet who works in a shooting area being less anti docking.

Interesting article on docking. www.washingtonpost.com/news/animalia/wp/2016/09/08/what-many-americans-dont-understand-about-designer-dogs/?fbclid=IwAR3cl8N7TYOzmXzwVHyqnCsQJSKyYp8CHCnzbV9loY9HUYNSi41h7tvq--4&noredirect=on&postshare=2541473358738509&utm_term=.e32f26ba4586

That's ridiculous, our pup was 'legally' docked as the breeder said he was going to a working home, he's not, he's a pet, and believe me I am extremely angry and upset about his docked tail...but it was done without my consent and I had no say in the matter 😩😩😡

@Prequelle

matt

My boxer had to have her tail docked because her wag was that powerful she split it from top to bottom hitting the wall. It was horrible for us all so you would get told to piss off and mind your own business if you had something to say.

OMG that sounds horrific.

It’s so ignorant to try and ‘shame’ people by making comments. It makes you look silly because you have no idea.

Our old dog (before we lost her) had a mutilated tail. She was rescued, and very little was known about her past. I’m glad we weren’t put off by the thought that ignorant people might ‘shame’ us in the street.

Her tail was already cut I mean, when we rescued her, not that we rescued her and cut her tail.

@reetposh

That's ridiculous, our pup was 'legally' docked as the breeder said he was going to a working home, he's not, he's a pet, and believe me I am extremely angry and upset about his docked tail...but it was done without my consent and I had no say in the matter 😩😩😡

Old thread - and you surely had the choice to not buy a docked dog.

We had a docked poodle (docked by the breeder who showed her poodles) but 25 years ago when this was the norm and he had the beautiful poodle pom-pom on his tail 🐩 . I can’t say it ever bothered him at all or that he was somehow neurologically damaged from it. Obviously wouldn’t do it now it’s illegal.

But on working cockers - I have a very ignorant question. If they get their tails docked to prevent injuries, are their big ears not also vulnerable to injury? Apologies for the very stupid question from someone who has never had a working cocker