Tail docking

[Hoppinggreen]

I was in my local farm shop today and there was a sign advertising Working springer puppies with the line “tails legally docked “
I thought all tail docking was illegal unless for medical purposes (such as tail damage) am I wrong or is there a loophole for working dogs?

I’m not going to get into a debate on animal suffering with you.

We both do what we genuinely believe to be the best interests of the animal concerned.

I won’t be changing my views and I don’t expect you to change yours.

If we got another working cocker I would still try and get an undocked one. I don't work him but yes he goes crashing through undergrowth as we do forest walks. His tail is like a helicopter and I do worry about him injuring it but honestly for me that's no different to him injuring other parts. We have had lots of paw injuries that are have been hard to heal so it would be no different to that and just part and parcel of an active dog.

When he is next to a docked spaniel I prefer the full tail and it is definitely more expressive than a docked one. If we had to dock it for injury then I would still love him just as much but I would be sad to see his tail reduced in size.

On the dew claws he has both front and back with the back being attached mostly by skin. Again we have been lucky that we have had no injuries but one vet (not our own) has advised we get the back removed if he is having any other treatment requiring anaesthetic. I don't know yet whether I would do that or not.

I have an undocked working cocker and he is fine. Yes, tail injuries occur but so do leg injuries and we dont lop those off. Better to remove an actually injured tail than injure all puppies born.

I’m not going to get into a debate on animal suffering with you.

We both do what we genuinely believe to be the best interests of the animal concerned.

I won’t be changing my views and I don’t expect you to change yours.

Point proved. Why educate yourself when you can stubbornly cling to a viewpoint on a subject that you clearly know nothing about, Promoting poor welfare choices that you’ve somehow convinced yourself equates to ‘caring’?

I genuinely don’t understand why you wouldn’t simply review the evidence and educate yourself. Though I suspect it’s because being convinced that you’re ‘right’ is more important than being kind, open minded or informed.

And actually you’re wrong on your last point -i’m Perfectly open to having my views changed. There’s discussion over whether neonatal puppies have the cortical connections necessary to experience true pain (as opposed to nociception) during the docking process. Depending on the outcome from the studies i’ll Happily adjust my position to accept that true acute pain may not be experienced at that time. In the wider context it doesn’t Matter as the barrage of other aversive consequences (chronic neuropathic pain, hypersensitisation to pain, muscular conditions) associated with docking still make it a poor choice for dog welfare.

I do and believe what I genuinely think to be in the best interests of the animal concerned.

I do not have to defend myself against anyone, least of all some anonymous individual who has never even met me or my animals and knows absolutely nothing about us whatsoever.

I wouldn’t bother responding to anything I post in the future as I have reached the end of my tolerance for your personally insulting drivel that insinuates I’m some sort of dog abuser which couldn’t be further from the truth.
I won’t be replying to anything from yourself in response to me in future.

I am perfectly well educated re current guidelines, I just don’t personally agree with them anymore.

So, back to the topic... if we excuse spaniels because they crash through undergrowth (not convinced on this, myself) how come I still see so many other docked breeds:

boxers
schnauzers
rotties
JRTs

• these are just the ones I have noticed since this thread began and I started being more aware...

I don't understand the health arguements for those breeds?

Boxers and shnauzers and rotties are for aesthetics, which is rightly illegal now, I haven’t seen any docked ones for a very long time in the UK and I have never seen a docked Jack, working or otherwise.

I saw all but the JRT yesterday in the local town high street.

We have 2 JRTs who we rehomed at 1 year old. Both have docked tails. The females is longer but has a bald and bent tip, maybe suggesting something went wrong? The male's 'tail'' is barely 2cm long and clearly docked way, way, way too short.

It in fact causes long term sensitivity to pain and increases the risks of a whole host of other medical and behavioural problems.

This is very interesting - because the male JRT DOES appear to be highly sensitive to pain and has always struggled to understand/be understood by other dogs.

No way to know why and, of course, a single anecdote does not equal proof of anything. Still, interesting to me...

I would assume your JRTs were originally going to be used for working and a tail is going to get in the way if you are sticking a dog down a hole . I assume ours was for the same reason , although as I said previously he has a good 5” of tail and it doesn’t appear to have been detrimental to him at all . I’ve not seen any other docked dogs , except spaniels , for a long time .

I would assume your JRTs were originally going to be used for working

It's entirely possilbe but I am not sure. The female, I could believe it. She is pure JRT with all the energy and drive to work.

The male has been crossed with something else (or his parents were cross breeds). He is delicate and thin, hates the mud and cold, never enjoyed tugging, shaking or tearing up a fluffy toy and I could not imagine anyone thinking he might go down a hole or hunt vermin. Of course, he could have been an oddball from the litter that were otherwise working dogs, but this now feels like reaching for a reason, iyswim.

“I don't understand the health arguements for those breeds?”

Rotties it’s supoosedly for practical reasons from when they were working dogs, but having owned one I’m not convinced they ever got in the way of anything, they have quite a high tail position anyway.

I’ve also wondered if docking is part of why they have a reputation for aggression... as of all the breeds I’ve owned, he used his tail most for communicating - it was a much more reliable indicator of how he was feeling than any other part of him.

Rotties older than 12 (which is a pretty good age for one) shouldn’t be docked... but, it’s still legal in Ireland so some come from there, imports from other countries too and of course, people do it illegally

“I don't understand the health arguements for those breeds

That’s because there aren’t any health arguments for any breeds. The evidence is overwhelmingly against docking for health and welfare reasons - though i’d Be very open to seeing any evidence to the contrary that supports the entrenched personal beliefs of some posters on this thread!

The ‘rationale’ for docking is actually because horses and dogs used to be taxed as luxury goods. Working animals were exempt from taxation and so working dogs and horses had their tails docked to identify them as exempt. The tradition has persisted til today under the guise of ‘preventing injury’ unsupported by any evidence.

Interestingly traditionally working breeds were not docked as it was a sign of status and being able to afford the tax.

The dog tax was repealed in 1796 but by that point docking had become entrenched and we can see from modern day brachycephalic breeding how keen humans are to prioritise aesthetics over health and welfare.

tge Tradition for docking guarding breeds stems from a Middle Eastern/Roman theory that it prevented rabies. You still hear this as a justification for tail docking and ear cropping in Asia. The evidence base is similar to the ‘preventing tail injury in working breeds’

Docking is illegal in Ireland. In Rotties anyway.

“Docking is illegal in Ireland.”

Sorry, yes it is now... I hadn’t checked to see if it had changed, it was still legal when I got my rottie 6 years ago, I hadn’t looked since tbh.

We recently lost our girl Rottie at only 5yrs old and she had been legally docked (Ireland). Our new boy has his tail and I love it. It really suits him and makes him easier to ‘read’. I’m glad it’s the new breed standard. Sadly I still see ear docking in other breeds (cane corso) which is breed standard based on looks and not preventative as has been argued.

I don’t know anything about springers so can’t really comment on whether it’s medically the right thing to do for a working dog but I’d be inclined to agree with a pp who pointed out that breeders are illegally docking under the guise of ‘working’ but it’s really for looks.

Sadly I still see ear docking in other breeds (cane corso) which is breed standard based on looks and not preventative as has been argued

In the UK ear cropping is illegal though we are seeing an increase in illegal ear cropping for aesthetics, similar to docking

Sorry, didn’t proof read, meant cropping. I’ve heard a few arguments one being it’s because the ears get targeted and torn off in a fight and the second being it leads to more infections as the ears are floppy (unlike a German shepherd say) so they keep in heat and moisture and are perfect for mites and infection.

Right enough our Rottie suffered recurring ear infections and lost both tempanic membranes (thankfully not hearing) but it would never have been a consideration to crop her ears which leads me to believe that corso breeders do so NOT as a preventative measure but as a breed standard for aesthetics.

I used to wonder why American Great Danes and Dobermans had pointed ears, initially I thought they were a different strain or something but I think they (or used to at least) cut them to make them like that
I did watch Animal cops Texas ( or something) the other day and they were trying to prosecute a man who had cut his Staffies ears. It was awful, he was trying to claim someone had broken into his garden and done it but it was bloody obvious what happened. Sadly I think the puppy died

I'm trying to find a link, but I read a very interesting article about how docked tails could potentially cause spinal damage, as the dog has to adapt when running, jumping etc. They showed the spine curvature of several dogs doing an agility course, half with full tails, half with docked. They use the tails as a 'rudder' and to counter balance, and those with docked tails had to bend their spines more severely to get round the course.
Was a very interesting read, but of course more studies would be needed.

There is a lot of focus in this thread on the pain of docking. However, the evidence is that very young puppies don’t experience pain as they are not mentally developed enough SEE HERE. The author of that study remains opposed to docking, as he says it interferes with canine communication. It’s fair to assume that it does, though there is very limited scientific work on it. However, if a dog is left with a decent length of tail, it’s unlikely to have too many problems making its feelings known to others: the Scottish solution, of allowing the removal of a third of the tail, leaves long-tailed dogs like spaniels and HPRs with more tail than many breeds are born with. And let’s not forget that the tail is not the only means of canine communication: facial expression, stance, movement, vocalisation and scent all have a part to play as well.

So, what about neuromas? Most of the science so far has focused on pigs, which are born in a much more developed state than dogs and so might not be comparable. My own experience with docked dogs is that tail hypersensitivity is unusual, but my experience is only anecdotal and my sample is not large. I’d be genuinely interested in a study of the rate of neuromas in docked dogs.

My equally anecdotal experience of tail injuries indicates that they are very common in dogs from working lines of spaniels and HPRs even when they are kept as pets. There is a study showing that such injuries are very common in these dogs when they are worked ABSTRACT HERE. These injuries are persistent, recurrent and difficult to heal, and cause the dogs considerable pain and exercise restriction. A proportion of such injuries will lead to tail amputation. This is a major operation in an adult dog, and can take up to six weeks to heal.

The way I see it, it’s a trade-off. It seems pretty clear that some dogs will suffer persistent pain from neuromas in docked tails, but we have no idea what proportion, or how severe the pain is likely to be. There is a stone-cold certainty that a high proportion of undocked dogs of some working breeds will suffer painful and persistent injuries to their tails. The answer to me seems to be to long-dock, so that the dogs still have plenty of tail for communication and balance, while minimising the risk of injury.

@MattMagnolia It’s common to see pet dogs like Jack Russells with mutilated tails.......... I like to shame the owners by loud comments as I pass.

If you ever come across me and do that, I will point out what an utter narrow minded arsehole that kind of action would have made you, since my "docked" show type cocker spaniel was actually bought with his full tail (I would never buy a docked puppy) but he suffered a tail injury, which wouldn't heal and eventually (after a heck of a lot of vet visits and trying desperately to save his tail) lead to him having most of his gorgeous long tail amputated at 9months old. I was distraught over it and cried even more when I saw his stump for the first time.

I agree with another pp about cocker spaniels needing to be out crossed to help lessen the risk of tail injury in them. I think because they were first created when docking was the standard, tail carriage and whip like action that makes tail injury more likely was accidentally bred into them.

I think it is wrong to dock a whole litter of puppies to save one from tail injury though and hope in the future it will be banned. The reality is, it comes down to convenience and tradition. Tail injuries are hard to heal, splatter blood every where (it looked like a bloody massacre had happened in my lounge when mine injured his tail), then have a more costly operation and need to be careful for the next 4-6weeks to make sure the stumpy tail left heals. I also had to keep my two dogs seperate from when he first injured the tail until his stump had healed after the amputation, as my other dog wanted to constantly lick the wound. It was very inconvenient but no way should that potential human inconvenience mean that puppy docking whole litters just to spare one a partial tail amputation further down the line is ok. That's just madness.

That was covered earlier in the thread grumpy - if injury rate is 1 in 16, why injure 16 out of 16 puppies?

I feel its ludicrous to suggest puppies dont feel pain whatever fancy science stats you can find funding to put behind it with. I have a great deal of experience with animals and if anything i feel they recover better from this kind of pain when older.

I've got a working Lakeland terrier who is legally docked and I'm glad he is.

My jrt isn't and his tail gets cut and bleed when he goes through the bushes.

Out loud comments wouldn't make me feel ashamed, I'd just think the person making them was ignorant.