Telling a dog off, and wellbehaved dogs.

[Nettleskeins]

Since taking my puppy out for walks I have met a few people with older dogs, giving me "tips" on how to stop bad habits. Including, pulling sharply on leash to make dog stay to heel, spraying water in dog's face when it barks at cats or other dogs, telling crossly dog to get down when it jumps up when pup so never jumps up on the table eats food etc. Aversive methods. Dogs seem happy and contented, but could this be because most of the time the owner is actually soppy and loving and has forgotten that their empathy with dog outweighs the brief strictnesses or basically dog is older and now behaves better anyway/has worked out what is acceptable.

All the training I read and receive in person mentions the importance of positive behaviour methods on puppies, but do most people resort to tugging on the lead, shouting Leave it or Get Down and NO.

Is so called"bad" behaviour basically developmental and if you can get through it, puppy will usually turn out fine if he likes you,gets enough sleep exercise and play and wants to please you, without aversive/corrective methods?

When I say "shouting" Leave it - I actually don't need to shout. I just use a firm I won't brook any nonsense kind of voice

All dog owners will occasionally tell their dog off and not use positive reinforcement! Although for training positive reinforcement is much better.

But squirting a dog with water/pulling it back on lead (with force) is fucking horrible.

Boo exactly so with the dog jumping up situation anyone and I mean anyone can drop treats on the floor to stop the jumping up - no marker positively trained - all happy.

I agree Bitey I have learnt to smile walk on by or take advice if it works for me but tbh it is the same with having a baby everyone is an expert!

But there are too many people making basic mistakes in positive training as this thread shows and they could have a much easier and happier time training their dogs - if they had been told correctly. The owners want to do it right - I feel that dog trainers are letting their clients down.

Adeline in your example, your dog is clearly quite quick at chaining the behaviours, so to quote you:
Yes, except my dog will jump up, to be told to get down, to get rewarded. He doesn't think that he should just stay on the floor in the first place. Same with getting down from the sofa (for example) - he won't just not get on - he'll get on to be told to get down, to get a treat. He's not daft.
I can see (and have seen many times) exactly the scenario you describe, where the owner/trainer waits for the dog to do the wrong behaviour, then asks for the correct behaviour and then rewards.
A dog that learns to chain behaviours quickly will soon add the two together and perform them in sequence. To break this chain, you have to manage the situation first, before the dog goes wrong,
So, in your example of jumping up, have the dog on a lead as your visitor comes in and throw treats all over the floor. Then keep dropping treats on the floor whilst holding the lead at a distance where the dog can't jump up at the visitor.
Same as the settee - manage the situation first. Do not let the dog in the room with the settee, unless he is on the lead, the you can prevent him jumping up whilst rewarding him for being in his bed.
I really can't think of a situation with my dog where I've had to shout at him, but I did very carefully manage his environment when he was young. And when I got it wrong, I accepted it was my bad management and got it right next time.

I’m surprised to see posts advocating treats for jumping.
Treats are great for teaching new behaviour but ignoring jumping works so well I just don’t see the need at all.

I just completely and utterly ignored my dog when she jumped as a pup, turning away if necessary and if unprompted she happened to sit I would just calmly kiss and cuddle her then.
She virtually never jumps now, it’s an automatic sit.

It is so easy at the start to treat for things like 'drop it'. BiteyDog was the same in that he learnt quickly that having a stone in his mouth equaled a treat so he started getting stones for attention. That's when I quickly realised that for him being kept outside away from me was 'punishment' for eating stones and he learnt that I wouldn't open the door to come in until he dropped the stone. He soon stopped picking up stones but I do think it's a constant battle to outwit my dog

Doggy I don't know what type of dog you have, but a large, excitable breed, jumping up at you, scrabbling with his feet, can really hurt and it can be very difficult to simply ignore them in that scenario. Also, they get to practice their behaviour and if they find it rewarding, ( remember, dogs choose what they find rewarding, it's not for us trainers to make that decision for them), they will continue to do it. I much prefer to manage their environment so that they don't get to practice unwanted behaviours.

Also Doggy - I’m surprised to see posts advocating treats for jumping.
I don't see anyone advocating giving treats for jumping, we are saying that you use treats when the dog has all 4 feet on the floor. I.e. the dog is being rewarded for the behaviour you want...feet on the floor.

.

She’s a collie but quite big, Labrador sized, although she obviously wasn’t as a baby puppy!

Personally, in that scenario I would persistently just keep turning away from the dog, arms folded, eyes averted until they got bored and left or sat down (which I would then calmly praise).

Hang on, no one is advocating treats for jumping?!

Then what is this?

’So, in your example of jumping up, have the dog on a lead as your visitor comes in and throw treats all over the floor. Then keep dropping treats on the floor’

And also, treats aren’t the only way of rewarding.

Praise is perfectly acceptable for a lot of dogs.

Doggy, 2 things, firstly, you must have shins of steel if a collie scratching them doesn't hurt, secondly, the danger with ignoring and then rewarding, is that if the dog is quick to chain behaviours, they may learn to jump then sit...see earlier comments.

In my example...I am using the lead to prevent (manage) the dog, so it doesn't get to practice the unwanted jumping up behaviour. I am using the food on the floor to reward the dog for having its feet on the floor.

Doggy...are you reading my posts?
You say:And also, treats aren’t the only way of rewarding.
I said: remember, dogs choose what they find rewarding, it's not for us trainers to make that decision for them

the treats on the floor is better because it is easier for the dog to remember surely? Otherwise each time you are going to have to tell the visitor not to react and possibly introduce a less friendly vibe for the dog when visitor doesn't react. Whereas treats on the floor win win. Visitors are good, I like them [dog's thoughts] I get treats on the floor. No-one is being rewarded for jumping but for four feet on the ground. And treats can be just very small bits of kibble surely, not mega treats.

[resolves to try this one - puppy jumps up adorably and is toy breed, but I can see it isn't going to last long, the adorability I mean)

They never really get the opportunity to scratch.
The dog goes to jump, you fold your arms and ignore, if they are scratching at you you move so you are facing away, persistently.
Completely and utterly ignoring and rejecting any attempt at contact.

The dog will get upset, probably jump even more so you continue ignoring them then one of two things happen, either they get bored and walk off or they sit, which you then calmly praise.

The dog is jumping because it wants attention.
Dog learns jumping = no affection
Calm sit = affection.

Yes I am gin and there is no need for your silly sarcastic posts.

I don’t agree with your method.

I am sorry if that offends you.

If you want to try treats on the floor nettle be my guest, I hope it works for you.

Personally, I like my dogs calm and chilled out at the door, calmly sitting for a cuddle rather than bouncing around people excitedly in anticipation of treats.

But that’s just me, I don’t get offended and sensitive and my other people’s methods of dog training.

** offended at

But you still haven't understood about the treats on the floor, a dog snuffling about on the floor for treats and being rewarded for not jumping, is better (imo) than a dog that jumps at you while you ignore it.

Your way, the dog jumps up and may find that self rewarding, my way, the dog never gets a chance to jump up (the lead prevents it) and it's rewarded for having its feet in the floor, so will repeat the behaviour for which it's rewarded (assuming the dog finds the treats rewarding, see earlier comment).

I understand your theory, but in my head, it would result in a very excited dog bouncing around in antipation of biscuits.

Which is annoying and in my case, small, narrow hallway + big dog + young children/frail elderly frequently visit = potentially dangerous.

I would be concerned about the dog mugging the visitors if the expected treats aren’t forthcoming also, it’s quite inconvenient aswell to have to always chuck treats, or are you phasing them out?

The ignore method has worked well for me and everyone else I know whose tried it, I understand this is a very small sample of dogs but it would be my go to method again if I were to get another dog because it’s worked for me and others I know.

The motivation for the jumping is desire for attention so the withdrawal of affection tends to work pretty rapidly, they learn quickly that the sit solicits the attention they are craving.
And it keeps them calm and sedate, which is important for me for the reasons listed above.

I accept that for you, your way has worked and that you are happy with it, but for other people reading this thread, who may not want a dog to jump on them at all, or who are concerned the dog will chain the behaviour of jump then sit, they may want to try the "manage the situation and reward the behaviour you want" technique.
If I was advising someone with your narrow hall scenario, I would recommend throwing the treats behind me, into the kitchen, then rewarding the dog, by dropping more treats, for staying behind me, Or, possibly to teach the dog to go to it's bed when visitors arrive.
With regard to mugging visitors for food...why would the dog do that? They know it's you who are providing the treats, not the visitors.