Telling a dog off, and wellbehaved dogs.

[Nettleskeins]

Since taking my puppy out for walks I have met a few people with older dogs, giving me "tips" on how to stop bad habits. Including, pulling sharply on leash to make dog stay to heel, spraying water in dog's face when it barks at cats or other dogs, telling crossly dog to get down when it jumps up when pup so never jumps up on the table eats food etc. Aversive methods. Dogs seem happy and contented, but could this be because most of the time the owner is actually soppy and loving and has forgotten that their empathy with dog outweighs the brief strictnesses or basically dog is older and now behaves better anyway/has worked out what is acceptable.

All the training I read and receive in person mentions the importance of positive behaviour methods on puppies, but do most people resort to tugging on the lead, shouting Leave it or Get Down and NO.

Is so called"bad" behaviour basically developmental and if you can get through it, puppy will usually turn out fine if he likes you,gets enough sleep exercise and play and wants to please you, without aversive/corrective methods?

Thanks, but my examples were hypothetical re the bin and chair chewing. I’ve had to resort to an under sink bin with child locks on the cupboards

I disagree about leave it. I think it's one of the most important things to teach them.

The same with raising your voice to them, it has its place. If I were to jump up now and shout Leave it! My elder dog would freeze in place, drop whatever she was holding and back away from anything she may have been sniffing. The younger one is ...a work in progress. It's basically a general command to mean stop whatever she might be doing and the raised voice communicates that I mean business. I don't normally shout at them so when I do both pay attention.

Tugging on the lead doesn’t work. Most puppies pull on the lead, it’s natural as they are excited and want to get to fun things faster. The way to deal with this is to make sure that pulling is not rewarded. The moment the puppy pulls, you stop walking, when the puppy gives you attention, you walk in the opposite direction. This can be quite frustrating for the trainer because for a few weeks you don’t get to walk anywhere, but it does work well.

The shouting of meaningless commands is very common. People assume dogs speak English (or French or whatever) and just repeat the same word again and again as if their dog is purposefully ignoring them. The golden mantra here is “You get what you name”, so create the circumstances for a fast sit, repeat it reliably and then name it. That way ‘sit’ comes to mean a fast and reliable sit to the dog.

Leave it is a command that has to be learnt like any other. Repeating the words, however much one shouts them, doesn’t work.

Having said all that, there are different types of aversives and personally I would not dismiss all of them. A sound aversive may help get back the attention of a dog that is completely focused on undesirable behaviour. A water or air aversive may stop a dog fight. And these are still a long way off electric shock collars or other much more harmful aversives.

totally agree about learning commands.

it was really hard to train all the people in the house that you can't tell the dog to 'walk' when he is pulling on ahead, because we haven't reliably taught him 'walk' yet!

The humans are getting it, slowly!

So much of training depends on the dog. Our dog will do anythign for a treat, and as a rescue who lived on the streets with his homeless owner, he is very attached to us, but also as tough as old boots in some ways!

“"Leave it" is usually just a scary shouty command that means nothing to a dog.”

I use leave, not leave it though because I use one word commands and adding it to things just makes a load of commands end in the same sound.

It means - that’s not for you, essentially... I use it seperately from drop or down or recalling. It means I don’t want you for anything else, but leave that thing alone. I’ve never had an issue with it tbh. I don’t shout it though, I teach it like any other command and if it was an urgent thing I’d recall or down. Mostly I use it for, nope the cat doesn’t want licked or things like, yes I’m aware I’ve dropped food, it’s still mine.

"Leave it" means something to my dog because I taught him what the words mean. I could, of course, have taught him the word "flibbertywidget" to mean exactly the same thing...

Back to the OP, I inherited a 14 month old with no basic training beyond being house trained. He was a pain in the arse, and starting to develop some behavioural issues, so I'm not convinced that they do just grow out of it. He's nice now (mostly...) after 18 months+ of positive reinforcement and exercise, and a very steep learning curve for me.

That said, the DGPs had dogs that had sod all obedience training (sit, down, come back if you feel like it...) and were very nice family dogs. I think it was a combination of dogs being expected to fit in, less being expected of them behaviourally and being from relatively easy breeds.

The problem with this question is that al dogs are not the same.

Some dogs (particularly collie variants) are so desperate to please that even showing displeasure towards them feels brutal.

Other dogs are more oblivious, more dominant or willfull. If you don’t ever raise your voice or lose your shit they will just keep pushing until you do. If you don’t they become total gobshites.

I usually find that a growl is the most effective way to quickly communicate displeasure if they are doing something they know they shouldn’t be.

All that said you’re only going to have a good dog if on the whole they feel loved and securely attached.
You will always get the best out of people and animals if they want to please you.

If a dog I was training put his teeth on a chair I would ask for another behaviour and reward that with a tuggy -so ignore the bad and reward the good)

This really doesn't work with all dogs - some definitely do things they shouldn't for the reward of food - especially stubborn, food-motivated ones!

Mine beagle definitely does things he shouldn't for attention - he's learnt that if he puts his teeth on the sofa, someone will get up and play tug with him, even if you ask for a different behaviour in between. And even though his tug is right there, he will still choose to the sofa option because that's what gets him the attention.

Then your timing is adaline

Then your timing is OFF adaline

I think what this thread shows is that there is a lot of confusion re positive training and I blame unqualified people calling themselves dog trainers and trying to teach.

Behaviour that is rewarded is repeated - fact.

If owners are rewarding the incorrect behaviour they will have trouble.

Okay, if it's off, what should I do differently?

Not all dogs learn the same way. He's a hound and they're incredibly stubborn and this is an issue I've seen loads on Beagle/hound advice and training pages.

People have two dogs (a hound and a "normal" dog) and they'll train them both identically yet the hound will not behave in the same way as the other. Beagles especially are notoriously stubborn.

I have to be very careful how I use treats as a training tool because I know full well if I use chicken to get him to stop doing something, he will do that behaviour so I can tell him to stop and he gets chicken. He doesn't care that he has to sit/lie-down/give paw or whatever beforehand, he knows that if he does x behaviour he will get y, even if he has to do something else first.

Beagles and other hounds are not the same as "regular" dogs - they are bred to work in the field independently from humans and they give not one shiny shite whether they please you or not!

You do need to give dogs clear instructions and certain behaviour needs a firm no otherwise you have a poorly behaved dog. My dog never jumps up at the table because he knows it's wrong not because I bribe him to get down. We don't need to use any corporal punishment because just a look is enough for him to know he's been bad. I do have very intelligent breed though. Over indulged dogs, like kids are badly behaved

I disagree with a lot of people here - we taught sit, stay, come, wait, lie down, leave it, stay close, back (plus a few tricks) within the first 8 weeks and never have had issues since. He also knows directions, to go and fetch people etc but that's breed specific. Leave it is a really important command so they don't scoff chicken bones abandoned on the street etc!

OverFedStanley possible, but equally every so often I see an owner who cannot understand and carry out the behaviour-click-reward sequence. They point the clicker at the dog and expect it to issue commands, they click after they have rewarded and many, many people click the wrong thing.

adaline your dog is very clever. He has chained two behaviours into one. Did something like this happen: I was trying to teach a puppy not to jump up on a person sitting on a chair. First time we walked up to her the puppy put his paw on her, I ignored it, asked him to sit, then he sat and I clicked him. Second time he put his paw on her then sat...my friend and I looked at each other and thought ‘uh oh!’. He has taught himself the behaviour was paw then sit. To stop it I placed myself between him and the friend and asked for the sit, repeated this a few times and then moved to ask from the beginning. You need to break the chain so that he doesn’t connect the two behaviours. How you do that depends on the circumstances. Will he recall away from the sofa as he is approaching it? Then teach him to recall and lie on a dog bed. If not, place yourself between him and the sofa and teach him an incompatible behaviour, e.g. reverse.

Yeah that could work thank you @Booboostwo!

To be honest it's not much of an issue he's generally very good in the house, I was more using them as an example.

But he's extremely smart but stubborn. If I ask him to do something you can see his brain trying to decide if it's worth it or not 😂

adaline same, I've just noticed that when out on a walk, if I recall my dog back to me because there's a dog/person etc, he'll stop, look around, check that there isn't something more exciting around, then come back. Its a recent development!
Joys of having such a smart dog!

Booboostwo Clicking is not essential in positive training

All dogs DO Learn the same way by being rewarded for the behaviour that is to be repeated - however there are variants to how this can be delivered.

No dog is stubborn - a dog may be given the wrong reward but that is different to be stubborn.

Totally agree about dogs not giving a "shiny shit" about pleasing you that is exactly why you reward the dog.

I have a beagle he can take or leave food as a reward, can't be arsed with a tennis ball but drag a rabbit skin toy across the floor and he will do handstands and sort out Brexit for you .

I have to be very careful how I use treats as a training tool because I know full well if I use chicken to get him to stop doing something, he will do that behaviour so I can tell him to stop you DONT give him chicken to STOP doing something - you give him chicken for the behaviour you want.

This is exactly what I mean about people being educated by trainers who do not know what they are talking about - find a decent trainer to explain things and you will see the benefits.

Work out the behaviour you DO WANT and train that.

Inappropriate behaviour - dog jumps up when he greets people - Behaviour you want 4 feet on the floor - reward when 4 feet are on the floor. Ignore jumping up - so jumping up stops and 4 feet on the ground is the new learnt behaviour

Inappropriate behaviour - Dog barks at door bell
Behaviour you want Dog to go to bed when door bell rings - ring doorbell put treat in bed dog goes to bed .
New behaviour hears door bell goes to bed.

OverFedStanley I am sure you can train a dog without a marker if you really wanted to, the question is why would you want to?

Inappropriate behaviour - dog jumps up when he greets people - Behaviour you want 4 feet on the floor - reward when 4 feet are on the floor. Ignore jumping up - so jumping up stops and 4 feet on the ground is the new learnt behaviour

Yes, except my dog will jump up, to be told to get down, to get rewarded. He doesn't think that he should just stay on the floor in the first place. Same with getting down from the sofa (for example) - he won't just not get on - he'll get on to be told to get down, to get a treat. He's not daft.

Even if I ask him to get down then ask for a sit, he will still do the original jumping up behaviour, get down when asked, then get in the sit, then expect a reward.

Finds wall and bangs head on wall - reward when feet are on the floor ignore other behaviour....... Your dog does not spend all of his time on his back feet! Throw treats on floor when all four feet are on floor hard to jump up ad pick up treats off the floor and then gives you more opportunity to reward 4 feet on floor.

Re sofa only reward on the floor - put mat on the floor by sofa always reward when on mat never on sofa - he will spend more time on mat.....
Dog is on sofa say nothing, dont look at him, just put treats on mat, always put treats on mat - then there is no reason to go on sofa periodically reward when on mat.........

Dogs are not daft

Boo because you said owners can't do not properly

OverFedStanley in my experience owners who struggle to understand the behaviour-marker-reward sequence, also struggle with more complex training demands. The clicker is supposed to be easier, you don’t have to remember to use the same word, at the right time, delivered in a neutral tone, you just click, but some people can’t manage to be that coordinated.

I think most owners do their best and all people and dogs are different so there will never be a consensus on exactly how to train them.

OP if people give me 'tips' I listen and then decide afterwards if I want to follow them or not. However, what really annoys me is the unsolicited advice as I have had people actually change direction and walk over to me to lecture tell me how I should never throw a ball because it will cause long term damage.

I mostly use positive training - praise, a good fuss and dog treats for good behaviour, but frankly I don't think shouting "Leave it" when my dog is about to eat another dogs' shit or a snotty tissue etc is punitive or negative training. Nor is telling him to 'get down' or saying 'no' - its a clear instruction not a punishment or admonishment.

I have a biddable well behaved dog (although not bomb proof - he's a flatcoat retriever) It took a good couple of years to get him there