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If you're worried about your pet's health, please speak to a vet or qualified professional.

Feeding a dog raw?

87 replies

NewYoiker · 26/01/2019 00:21

Does anyone do it? I'm struggling to get our puppy to eat- she will eat the raw complete stuff I bought in an act of desperation but apart from that she'll only eat pedigree wet puppy 🙄 it has 4% meat!

Does anyone have ideas? Anyone feed butternut box?

OP posts:
Skade · 31/01/2019 18:20

My three are all raw fed. Their coats are shiny and healthy, I have never known them be unwell. I don't worm them, treat them for fleas or vaccinate them. They poo twice a day on average, and their poos don't smell at all - the best bit is they turn white after a day or so like 70s poos so easy to pick up Grin I feed them 100% minced meat and bone; sometimes I add sprats or other fish, and sometimes I add vegetables. I pick up their food from the local raw food shop in minimal packaging so it's good for the environment, and to feed all three of them costs me the princely sum of £22 a week. Do whatever works for you OP, for me it was the best decision I ever made.

Ihaventgottimeforthis · 01/02/2019 09:47

Veterinari but an awful lot of people handle raw chicken in their kitchens and fridges. So there's a huge risk of bacteria spreading there.
Cooking a chicken doesn't remove the bacteria from work surfaces, fridges and so on.
I struggle to see why the risk is greater from prepping dog food than human food, especially if the meat sources are the same.

missbattenburg · 01/02/2019 11:01

Ihaventgottimeforthis

This is going to test my science a bit by my understanding of pathogen shedding is that an individual can carry the bacteria or virus but not suffer from it because their own immune system keeps it under control. However, there is still an element of replication happening which creates new viral/bacterial bodies. Some of those will be destroyed by the hosts immune system but some are shed - they are scattered about the environment they live in via sweat, breath, faeces, saliva etc. So, to spread some virus or bacteria you do not need to lick something (for e.g.) you can do so just by breathing.

When a human takes raw chicken from the fridge and cooks it before eating they kill the bacteria before ingestion and so do not have any bacteria intake. No bacteria intake = nothing to shed.

If that human were to eat raw chicken, even if it did not make them sick, they would have ingested bacteria. Not all those bacteria would be killed by the digestion process and so they would be "infected" and about to spread the bacteria via shedding.

Ditto for dogs.

That all makes is sound like I am anti-raw. I'm not (have fed raw myself). Just wanted to add an explanation in case it helps.

nrpmum · 01/02/2019 13:48

@missbattenburg thank you for explaining that.

I think for me the risk is so minimal that it is not something that concerns me, but I understand why people would be. Just feel sorry for the op whose thread was somewhat derailed.

Veterinari · 03/02/2019 09:32

Yes @Missbattenburg
Describes it well.

Because of this risk major veterinary hospitals have started barrier nursing patients fed raw diets as they are a potential infection risk to other patients in clinics. But those same risks exist to immunocompromised people in the community.

This open access article gives a nice summary of overall pros and cons
www.researchgate.net/profile/Daniel_Chan4/publication/280684236_The_Raw_Deal_Clarifying_the_nutritional_and_public_health_issues_regarding_raw-meat_based_diets/links/56163b0808ae0f21400628f9/The-Raw-Deal-Clarifying-the-nutritional-and-public-health-issues-regarding-raw-meat-based-diets.pdf?origin=publication_detail

Veterinari · 03/02/2019 09:40

You pull me up on research I completed in 2014 initially, and since then. Yet the chickens you referred to were tested between 1998 and 2000. Furthermore only 140 chickens were tested and the article was published in 2002.

@nrpmum the relevance of the research date varies depending on the field. Most raw feeding research has only been done recently (it’s an emerging area) so that’s why the more recent data i’ve Been highlighting is more relevant. I suspect in 2014 there was almost nothing published on the human safety aspects. Conversely most poultry pathogen data studies are now being done in developing countries as levels in the UK etc are well established from older research.

However you seem determined to keep commenting specifically to me then accusing me of derailing the thread when I respond, so i’ll Stop now. The thread contains a lot of evidence with multiple links through to peer reviewed literature so you’re able to inform yourselves should you wish to. Home cooked diets present a valid alternative to raw or commercial diets without the public health risks, but fundamentally the choice is yours.

Ihaventgottimeforthis · 04/02/2019 22:27

Veterinari the shedding point is a fair one, but I also understand very little about that side of things, related to risk and so on.

In my experience the vast majority of people who feed raw scrutinise the nutritional value of the diets so closely, I'd be very surprised if they didn't pay very close attention to hygiene as well.
And I'd think my dog is more likely to shed bacteria from the fox shit he rolls in or the rotten fish he ragged around on the beach than from human-grade food. But there's no harm in being aware of hazards.

StopMakingAFoolOutofMe · 01/03/2019 12:21

That thread just seems to be you arguing against raw feeders.

Personally, after 20 years of feeding raw, being involved in a breed where many people raw feed who I see regularly at events, all none of which have ever had issues with salmonella or sick children, plus with me being immunocompromised and elderly relatives being in constant contact with my dogs with no issues, I'll stick to raw feeding and healthy dogs eating what dogs are supposed to.

Smotheroffive · 02/03/2019 17:46

In terms of evolution, processed, supposedly 'best' food for dogs has only recently been around. Human guts seem to be best suited to our evolution around cooked foods extracting the optimum levels of energy from food, however, meat is disnatured during cooking, losing enzymes and vitamins, etc.
I don't think anyone's disagreeing that it's best suited for a dog to eat raw, and I consistently see weaning pups rip into raw meat products (human food), whereas there are breeders who have to use techniques to getpups eating processes food.

I do think there is a widely held belief that all these pathogens don't exist in processed dog foods. The meats used I doubt are the quality I use, and are from offal (the thing you say is a single high contributing risk factor for pathogens).

Mars have recalled over 100 of their brands for widespread contamination.

New York residences are full of mice crapping salmonella and distributing it everywhere.

I belief the pathogens are more present in intensely farmed (i.e. not fed their natural diet which combats a huge proportion of development of such pathogenspathogens)
The issue is the source. If you stuff cattles guts (evolved for grass digestion) full of corn to fast rear them, and produce poor quality meat, the meat itself will carry higher loads of pathogens.

People eat all forms of raw meat all around the world, the key is the quality. In the states for instance where there is high prevalence of corn feed protocols, meat is also treated so it doesn't turn brown with deterioration (carbon monoxide). It will look pink when it dangerous to eat. These kind of poor practices bring the risk to your home. Most of the infection you will get from commercial food establishments, or as I did, travel to remote places, and contracting both campylobacter and salmonella. I wasn't well! But good gut microbes deal with it.

A high protein diet for a dog plays to their gut design and microbe environment. Mixing diets causes massive imbalances as does carb content, and resultant obesity.

I we carry all these pathogens that cause illness, and so do animals. Our guts, their guts. They are everywhere already is my take, and feeding my animals another way will cause problems for their lives afaik.

I cannot quote you all the research, papers, books and regimes I have studied and reviewed, as well as the decades of experiences of other breeders I know. Particularly the breed specific ones.

As an aside, I would never need large cooked bones either. They do snap into very sharp points and I dont use weight bearing bones. A 'wellwisher' decided to feed cooked bone to one of mine. I had no idea this had happened. I became concerned about one of my ddog's behaviour generally and specifically eating. It wasn't obvious what quite was the issue. Only when I found out what had happened I immediately drew the link and check ddogs mouth/throat/teeth and found a massive sharp sliver driiven hard into gums between the two rear top teeth!

The safest thing I think I've given for purely knawing purposes has been antlers, but maybe someone will come along and tell me otherwise, then I'll think again.

Ddogs are supposed to eat partially digested grass, like that within the stomach of scavenged animals, rabbits, etc. As well as the reason they eat rabbit, sheep, cow and horse poo. They are the most bacteria ridden disgusting feeders! Even if you don't give it to them yourself. They will dig for soil to eat and graze on grass. Not to mention the foul unmetionables they roll in and walk through, pick up in puddles, eat rotting birds etc. Just gross and riddled with it. Read an interesting article on the neutralising of e.coli etc by vultures recently. Also, what you put in will transform the guts ability to destroy, by increasing the acidity in the gut. This can happen within weeks of moving to raw.

I think its pretty much always possible (within reason) to find research findings that corroborate the outcome one seeks. I don't even think there are even now definitive articles, or sufficient meta analysis.

In other news its reported that ddogs are harbouring increasing variants of the influenza virus - providing a means of transference from pigs to humans, the next major flu pandemic! Potentially.

StopMakingAFoolOutofMe · 02/03/2019 20:03

Good recreational treats are raw beef marrowbones, raw pig trotters and the antlers are OK too.

Yes, you're right about the vegetation only being in very small amounts and already half digested in the stomachs of prey. This is why the "fantastic" processed foods containing crap like masses of sweet potato, carrots etc are bullshit. They're just fillers so they can put less meat in.

A small amount of blended fruit/veg once a wee is fine but every day in dog food is a waste of time.

Smotheroffive · 02/03/2019 20:25

There's just no avoding dogs need high proportion of protein.

I've always avoided any raw pig, and find the fatty marrow big beef bones too rich for tums (plus they go off/attrack flies quite quick).

I am so glad that antlers became a thing, and mine will devour anything else too quickly. Also glad of Kong extreme s etc.

Mullberry7373 · 03/03/2019 12:22

I’ve just posted this on another raw food thread:

I feed our dogs raw and they love it. They are very healthy, the one with allergies itches less on it, they have shiny coats, good teeth, no farts, and pooh less - less crap goes in so less crap come out !

Our favourite is The Dogs Butcher, we also use Bulmers and DAF. Finding a good supplier is the best way, we order monthly from K9 catering as they do such a good variety. We have a separate freezer for it, not becasie I’m worried about contamination as I have some in my normal freezer too, but just becasie we order monthly and it wouldn’t all fit in my freezer !
For treats I dehydrate thin strips of meat, but you can buy this too. I also get bags of bones from a butcher of Morrison’s do them cheaply. We get lamb bones, meaty beef bones, marrowbones and chicken wings all from Morrison’s.

Chicken is the main cause of itchiness/allergies so we avoid chicken for one of ours. Our bulldog does have some dry food mixed with hers, some people wouldn’t agree with this but it’s a very high protein grain free food that can be fed alongside raw. Normally dry food digests at a different rate to raw which is why it’s not advised to feed both together. We found she needs it to keep her fuller for longer.

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