Feeding a dog raw?

[NewYoiker]

Does anyone do it? I'm struggling to get our puppy to eat- she will eat the raw complete stuff I bought in an act of desperation but apart from that she'll only eat pedigree wet puppy 🙄 it has 4% meat!

Does anyone have ideas? Anyone feed butternut box?

And apologies I should clarify my earlier comment that cooked lamb beef and pork bones are all safe - I meant in terms of splintering (as opposed to poultry bones) any bones however can cause dental fractures (one of the main causes of death in wild carnivores) or GI obstruction

Bone in a complete raw diet are minuscule. Unless your dog is a grazer, which is unlikely on a ready made complete raw diet, you're in no danger.

I don't feed raw bones, as in a neck of something that can be eaten over hours. He gets his raw dinner, which is gone in moments, and his treats are air dried/100% natural.

I was a sceptic too, until I tried the complete raw stuff.

If you feed raw chicken you may be interested in this new study looking at raw chicken and campylobacter as a risk factor for neurological disease in dogs
pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/raw-chicken-linked-to-paralysis-in-dogs

Veterinari I am sincerely grateful that you are not my vet.

I have fed my dogs raw for 5 years and I am immunosuppressant and I have never become ill because of it.

Like any raw meat it carries a risk.

Veterinari I am sincerely grateful that you are not my vet.

Really why is that? Because I base my advice on evidence that is in the interests of public health and dog health rather than just telling you what you want to hear?

I’n Genuinely interested as to why dog owners choose to take the risks of raw feeding rather than offering cooked diets. It’s a shame that no one seems willing or able to answer that question

No, I don't go to my vet to be told what I want to hear. I do expect my vet to respect my wishes with regards to my dogs though. You would probably deem me a 'precious' owner but I thoroughly research the pro's and con's of everything I do for my dogs. Including food, operations, immunisations, etc.

For example I did not want my youngest castrated. However he started suffering paraphimosis and after much deliberation, and consultation with my vet I had him castrated at 11 months.

Just because my view differs from yours does not mean it is wrong.

Neither of my dogs are nutritionally defficient. They have both been fed raw from 10 weeks. I thoroughly researched raw feeding, and they get a balanced diet. They have relevant supplements as and when required. They are wormed naturally (checked by worm count) and have never had a flea or tick.

However I am mindful that what is good for the goose isn't good for the gander.

@nrpmum

Please point out where I have said that raw feeding is ‘wrong’ or raised any concerns about nutritional balance. You seem to be conflating the issues rather.

On a personal level I couldn’t care less what you feed your dog. My professional opinion however is based on the clearly evidenced public health risks and on very recent work indicating potential health risks to dogs such as the study above. My professional duty is to safeguard animal (and human) health and welfare. As all of this research has only very recently been published I think it’s unlikely that whatever research you did 5 years ago is relevant now. Science is constantly gifting us with new knowledge, and I think it’s important that we change our practices in line with that knowledge.

You are of course entitled to a different opinion and may well prefer to stick with your traditional approach and ignore the risks. That is absolutely your choice. You can discuss whether an opinion is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ until the end of the world. That’s why I much prefer evidence and no one has yet to put forward any evidence that raw feeding is safer or healthier than cooked diets. No one on this thread appears even to be willing to put forward a good reason for feeding a raw diet. So whilst I remain open minded and would be delighted to hear evidence that justifies the public and animal health risks, no one seems to be able to present any.

My vet is onside, too.

Just because you work at a vets, vetinari, doesn't mean you are the only one whose opinions count.

People arrive at raw for good reason, from their own experiences. Yes, some feed an inadequate raw diet, just as some feed an inadequate cooked diet or commercial diet.

My dog is 'as fit as a butcher's dog', as they used to say. Commercial dog food is a recent invention.

I’n Genuinely interested as to why dog owners choose to take the risks of raw feeding rather than offering cooked diets. It’s a shame that no one seems willing or able to answer that question
I can't speak for all those who feed raw but these are some of my reasons:

• Both my dogs enjoy it and never get ill. My rescue GSD was underweight when I got him and commercial dog food made him vomit.
• they used to gulp kibble down in a few seconds, no chewing at all. The same would happen if they had cooked meat.

-most of the food they get, large chunks of meat, edible bones (duck necks, ribs etc) means they have to use their teeth and jaws properly and take their time.

• more convenient poos . They both go once a day in the garden. I don't have to worry about picking up large runny poos on walks.

Just because you work at a vets, vetinari, doesn't mean you are the only one whose opinions count

Umm my point is that my opinion doesn’t really matter at all. Neither does yours actually. It’s the scientific evidence that is important. But if you are interested in opinions, the British Veterinary Association, Public Health England and other relevant bodies have raised concerns about raw feeding.

There seems to be a distinct lack of comprehension in this thread - i’m Struggling to see how arguments for nutritional balance are in any way relevant to the evidence i’ve Raised for public health risks or neurological disease caused by campylobacter.

And anecdotes over your own dog’s fitness are also irrelevant - plenty of smokers live to a ripe old age - it’s not evidence that smoking is a great lifestyle choice or safe for others.

If anything, all your’re doing is reinforcing how uninformed your opinions are, and how many raw feeders are actually totally unaware of the potential risks

@Masonjar

Thank you but i’m Not asking why you feed a home prepared diet vs commercial food, but specifically why raw? You’d still get all of those benefits with a home cooked diet and none of the public health or dog health risks associated with pathogenic bacterial exposure - why not just cook it?

They are wormed naturally (checked by worm count) and have never had a flea or tick.
That's really interesting nrpmum, I do the same and my dogs have never had fleas or worms either. I understand that stomach acid may become stronger with a raw diet, perhaps this has something to do with lessening risk of worms.
I wish there was more research.

Veterinari, please could you explain how me feeding my dogs raw is a risk to anyone outside of my household?

@madvixen it’s explained through several articles already linked to on the thread. Dogs fed pathogenic bacteria-containing food can carry these bacteria asymptomatically - shedding them in their saliva and faeces. Thus anyone in contact with them in potentially at risk. Obviously the risks are greater for those directly involved in raw meat prep and good hygiene practices are recommended, but this doesn’t eliminate the wider risks to the public.

Recent research such as the Australian study linked above also indicate that these bacteria may be directly harmful to dogs

Raw is species appropriate. Cooking destroys some nutrients, and makes the bone element of the meal dangerous.

The world is full of toxins and pathogens, good personal hygiene is generally sufficient for a healthy person. An immune compromised person knows to wash their hands after petting a dog.

I would love to see the statistics that can directly link people with the illnesses you refer to Veterinari to raw feeding dogs. I would bet the percentage is extremely low, and it won't take into consideration their hygeine practises.

I have continued to keep abreast of raw feeding, and I still feel it is the best option for my dogs. Truthfully I have tried different supplements for worming and ticks/fleas over the years, but so far have favoured ACV with Mother and Diatomaceous Earth Food Grade for worming. Mine have never had either too @MasonJar

Vetrinari you have implied we are wrong by feeding raw because of the research you have done. Even a loose google search will provide conflicting reports.

If anything, all your’re doing is reinforcing how uninformed your opinions are, and how many raw feeders are actually totally unaware of the potential risks

I, and I'm sure many others on here are aware of the risks of feeding cooked bones. Also, surprisingly, pathogenic risks. Sometimes we even seek to minimise them whilst promoting what we feel to be a diet that best promotes our dogs health.

Can't help feeling that anecdotal evidence of a number of people feeding raw diet for many years (5-10 years quoted in this thread) must have some value. After all these are the people who are being licked by the dogs and picking up their poo on a daily basis. Surely they and their families would have been affected by now? Not saying it could never happen, but seems to be a bit of scaremongering going on.

Thank you but i’m Not asking why you feed a home prepared diet vs commercial food, but specifically why raw?
Cooking destroys some nutrients, it also breaks down the meat fibres so it won't be so chewy.

Cooked meaty bones aren't safe for dogs to eat as they splinter.

i’m Struggling to see how arguments for nutritional balance are in any way relevant to the evidence i’ve Raised for public health risks or neurological disease caused by campylobacter.
I'm struggling to see how my raw fed dogs can be a public health risk.
They never lick visitors to the house or random strangers on walks.
They poo in the garden and it's disposed of appropriately.

Veterinari you've said that the 'vast majority' of chicken carcasses in the UK are infected with salmonella - do you have any evidence for that? Because the limited evidence I have found (like this www.thepoultrysite.com/articles/1530/uk-survey-of-campylobacter-and-salmonella-in-fresh-chicken/) seems to say it's more around 6%. (Campylobacter a lot higher)
I don't think anyone would suggest 6%, or even 10%, is the vast majority.
People need to take care around prepping their dog's raw food, as we do around prepping our own raw food.

@NewYoiker I use Landywoods and DIY. I have done for many years, and have vast experience with supplements if required too. I am happy to help you as I am sure many others are here too.

A good starting place is The Dogs Dinner by Anne Ridyard. Once I decided raw was best for mine I started there.

Raw is species appropriate. Cooking destroys some nutrients, and makes the bone element of the meal dangerous.

Cooking destroys some nutrients, it also breaks down the meat fibres so it won't be so chewy.
Cooked meaty bones aren't safe for dogs to eat as they splinter.

Except there's no evidence that any nutrient loss is significant and as the vast majority of home-prepared diets are nutritionally imbalanced anyway, it seems an unusual concern. Bone isn't actually even a recommended component of home-prepared diets as it can cause obstructions or dental disease regardless of whether cooked or raw
www.theveterinaryexpert.com/fabulous-foods/bones-and-raw-food-diet-barf/
www.thewebinarvet.com/webinar/feeding-raw-food-diets-to-dogs-and-cats-what-is-the-evidence

The world is full of toxins and pathogens, good personal hygiene is generally sufficient for a healthy person. An immune compromised person knows to wash their hands after petting a dog.

This is true. Its also pretty irrelevant to the public health risks of raw feeding.

I would love to see the statistics that can directly link people with the illnesses you refer to Veterinari to raw feeding dogs

You can read them on this thread if you review any of the evidence I've linked to

Vetrinari you have implied we are wrong by feeding raw because of the research you have done. Even a loose google search will provide conflicting reports.

I think, if you think a loose Google search is equivalent to peer-reviewed literature and expert consensus, we're probably looking at slightly different qualities of evidence.

I'm struggling to see how my raw fed dogs can be a public health risk.They never lick visitors to the house or random strangers on walks. They poo in the garden and it's disposed of appropriately

And its great that you're taking good hygiene measures. But it doesn't eliminate the risks- dogs become carriers and excretors of pathogenic bacteria

Veterinari you've said that the 'vast majority' of chicken carcasses in the UK are infected with salmonella - do you have any evidence for that?

You're right, Campylobacter appears more prevalent, rather than Salmonella. Still very dangerous and linked to neurological disease in dogs though so I'm not sure it actually matters specifically which pathogen is more prevalent.
Salmonella and Campylobacter spp. were present in 25% and 83% of the chickens, respectively
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168160502000272
Additionally the risk in raw petfoods appears to be higher as per the studies linked to earlier in the thread.
www.theveterinaryexpert.com/fabulous-foods/bones-and-raw-food-diet-barf/
Even small amounts of Salmonella, E.coli or Campylobacter are a concern because of their role in antimicrobial resistant infections

People need to take care around prepping their dog's raw food, as we do around prepping our own raw food.
I don't think many people eat raw chicken... Cooking kills pathogenic bacteria and limits the spread of anti-microbial resistant infections.

I think I'd actually feel better about this if it was clear that people were familiar with the evidence and had taken an informed decision to expose their pet and their communities to these risks. But that's not the impression I'm getting.

Do you know what, I'm very happy with my dog's health and diet, and so is my vet.

No one I know has had campylobacter or salmonella since my dog has been raw fed.

My family are fit and well.

Neither the dog nor we have had antibiotics in years.

I see no public health emergency.

By contrast I see many very fat dogs whose commercial diet is doing them little good.

Tbh whilst I appreciate your rather vehement view on this you have hijacked a thread written by someone asking advice on raw feeding.

There are many people who raw feed their animals. Many, like me, who take precaution when handling raw food. I, like a pp, also pick up after my dogs who mainly defecate in our back garden. My two dogs have licked my face, and even though I am immunosuppressant I have never become ill due to it.

You are right, I am not reading the same material you are. Mainly because the chances of contracting illness from raw food is small.

You pull me up on research I completed in 2014 initially, and since then. Yet the chickens you referred to were tested between 1998 and 2000. Furthermore only 140 chickens were tested and the article was published in 2002.