Can a dog still nip through a muzzle?

[Doggydoggydoggy]

Plastic basket style?

As an anxious owner of a reactive dog I can sympathise Doggy.

If you're not already a member then definitely join the Reactive Dogs UK FB group. It's run by professionals and they can point you towards a decent trainer/behaviourist in your area who will be able to help you and your dog. It's also rather comforting to know there are loads of other people in exactly the same position as you and I find the success stories really heartening.

In the meantime I agree with trying to find a secure field you can hire to take her to. This site has loads listed and there are more going up all the time. I really can't understate how fabulous it is to be able to take your reactive dog somewhere they can run around off lead without you having to be on the alert all the time.

If you're walking her on lead try using a walking belt (I've got a fab one from Indi-Dog) rather than holding the lead with your hands. As well as being more secure (no worries about dropped leads) it prevents any communication of anxiety down the lead to your dog. I found it really helped for me and my reactive boy on both fronts.

You are going to deny this vehemently but there is absolutely nothing in the CARE procedure that will make a dog worse. Nothing absolutely nothing. You may need guidance to help carry it through and support you.

Also why are you letting you dog interact with any dog at all? You know he is reactive so allowing him to meet dogs which push him over the threshold will absolutely balls up any work you have done before.

I do know how hard it is (ive been there)

Take a deep breath have a glass of wine and calmly over the next few days really think how you have tried to desensitise your dog.

CARE takes years - balance training does not work - if it were that easy there would be no reactive dogs.

As said before find a qualified behaviourist not balanced trainer who will have no qualifications at all and let them see your posts on here and they will support you for months to come to get you enjoying your dog again

It’s just my personal experience detox.
And I did follow it for years, about three.

I used to be very against ‘balanced’ training, believe me, I would never ever have considered it had I not been absolutely desperate.

And your quite right, it does appear not to have worked after all.
But I felt like I had to try something new to try and fix this.

Well, because to begin with she was only reactive to big bouncy dogs (so I stayed away from them) and gradually over time she started reacting to more and more dogs.
She has always been a bit better with smaller dogs and after starting the balanced training she became a lot better with small dogs (I was still keeping her away from big ones)

With the incident today, because the dogs were small I was relatively confident there wouldn’t be an issue and was proven wrong.

With the greyhound I wasn’t going to let them meet due to the greys size but the lady was insistent we should try and that she was safe with the muzzle and that coupled with the fact the grey was super super calm and non threatening I decided to go along and let them interact.

I have a reactive dog. He wears a high vis vest when I walk him. This has made a big difference when we meet other dogs. Owners clock the vest and give us space. In the past like you I ve had people insisting on letting their dog interact with mine or letting it rush up to us off the lead.

Muzzle and lead usually works too. Muzzle particularly, though vest is far more visible.
Had people giving me a wide berth when dog had muzzle and lead on. Was great, and dog and I relaxed more too. Always get one, though, who knows better, or tells you its ok cos their dog is friendly

Ok you have done CARE, done balanced training so no other options open to you.......

(what about getting qualified behavioural advice..........it works)

I DID get qualified behavioural advice.

Asfaik there are really only two options.
Positive only or balanced?
Tried them both.

I have a greyhound and they're usually muzzled to protect small furries rather than because they're reactive (although obviously some are). They're usually massive wimps too so a dog going for them can easily make them yelp (it's a Greyhound Scream of Death and usually means nothing at all is wrong). I can well imagine a smaller dog yelping from fear from being lunged at too. I'd test it with a teddy or something indoors and watch carefully.
My Grey also wants to run but can't be let off unless entirely secure so try to find a secure place locally. It sounds like yours has recall so you'd just need somewhere quiet with one way in and out to stand near/ watch for incomers. When mine can't run we just do one long walk and as many short ones as she wants, one or two. Walk through the streets and let her stop and sniff. We have Likipads, bones, etc for her to work on. There are lots of toys you can get to help her use up some mental energy while she's only being walked on lead. Kongs and Wobble Kongs, sniff mats, whatever works for your dog. You can sometimes rent a horse riding school's arena to run a dog, kick a ball about etc. We don't have that because we're in London and they all want about £30 a session and we'd have to drive quite a way to get there and mine will only run for 10 mins then just want to stand about. Is there anywhere secure you can take yours for a while?

I realise that doesn't answer your actual question so no, they should not be able to nip through a properly fitted muzzle and I don't know what to suggest about the actual aggression issue so just gave suggestions for staying on lead. It's so sad when they want to run free but can't. I hope you find a way to help your dog.

I have a relative with a dog reactive dog. After seven years this dog was able to interact with mine in a very controlled and brief way.
No quick fix.
Research safe spaces for free running.
Get DH to walk if dog is fine with him.

I have a dog who became reactive after an attack. He has improved, but it's been years and I still don't let him meet dogs he doesn't know. If friend gets a new dog we keep our distance for as long as it takes - could be weeks or months.

I had a session with a behaviourist soon after the incident, which helped a lot in understanding what had happened and gave me techniques which enabled me to walk ddog again and build trust with him.

Last year I had a couple of sessions with an excellent positive trainer. He reinforced what I had been doing but also made me buck up my attitude - instead of having a " poor baby everything is so hard" attitude I needed to be lot more " hey it's all fine, we're just going this way to avoid all those dogs". This has made a big difference, so I have to agree that your mental attitude definitely does influence your dog's behaviour.

Op why do you need your dog to be anywhere near other dogs?

I had a dog aggressive dog and tried for years to make her friendly but one day I gave up and it was a revelation.
Recall your dog, put on lead, walk past other dog and that’s that. No more stress or worry about how she will react as she does not need to interact. Dogs to not require friends and it seems she does not want them either.

They can probably pull fur wearing a muzzle which may account for a squeal, some dogs also do this when nervous of the situation, like my friends little poodleX.
Greyhounds are also well known for Greyhound Scream of Death to minor things (like catching a paw/ injections etc) and yet can carry on as if nothing happened with injuries requiring a vet trip.

Some trainers also do classes specifically for reactive dogs so get used to being around other dogs with more understanding for their needs for individual space. I've gone on reactive dog workshop with Jim Greenwood who is well regarded with lot of rescues www.jandjgreenwood.co.uk/
It doesn't sound like a good idea but tends to be a lot of barking at start, then dogs just settle. It was critical of my handling skills (I'm also an anxious type) but they are common human reactions. I did learn a lot about what triggers my dog and how best to deal with coming across other dogs, actually he was much better than I expected which gave me confidence.

He can meet other dogs(lived with 3) but it needs to be very gradual i.e parallel walking & not a strangers, so he feels relaxed, not way most dogs tend to meet which sounds like how it went wrong for yours.

I think suggestion of going along with dog walker is a great idea as will help boost your confidence in your dog and in turn should help you relax.

I was surprised but is quite a few reactive dogs competing in agility or canicross (running with dog) as focussed on a task and not interacting with each other I guess.

I was surprised but is quite a few reactive dogs competing in agility or canicross (running with dog) as focussed on a task and not interacting with each other I guess.

I don't have a reactive dog so didn't want to suggest this in case I was talking bollocks. I have a timid fearful dog of strange people or dogs (non reactive) but I have found doing agility has increased his confidence in ME and that he is more relaxed when we meet strange dogs as he looks to me and if I am bright and breezy he is ok.

Maybe doing something like that would give you the confidence in your abilities to work with your dog and make 'you' less anxious generally. Obviously this does not take away the issues with your dog but it would at least give you something enjoyable for you both to do together rather than being anxious all the time on walks. I often think how awful it must be for owners of reactive dogs always trying to manage the situation when out and about

I agree with Maneandfeathers.
Once I accepted that my dog wasn’t friendly, and stopped trying to get him to be, it was a weight off my shoulders.
We choose quiet areas to walk in, always on his long line just in case, but walks became pleasurable again.
The long line makes me feel secure, which I’m sure transfers to him, and if we do see another dog or person, then we just walk the other way. Rarely happens if you pick the right route and time of day though.
I use an app called ViewRanger, which shows lots of public footpaths that I would never have known existed.

I am pretty sure there is a gated small field near me, no livestock in it, I think I will have a look at it tomorrow, see how secure it is.

I don’t ‘need’ her to be near other dogs but they can be hard to avoid, particularly in the rural, fieldy, woodlandy locations my dog likes so much.
I don’t mind having a dog that isn’t really into other dogs I just would prefer it if she opted to ignore them rather than aggress when they do inevitably approach.
You can’t always avoid, I have had race across fields to get to us and I had dogs persist in following us.

I’m not sure agility would be a good idea for two reasons.

I have on walks before got her to jump up on logs, over benches etc and yes she likes it but that is a big quiet environment, I think an agility environment with noise and dogs I think she’d find it immensely stressful.

Secondly, she goes from 0 - 60 rapidly and is very prone to overstimulation and frustration.

Anything she has to really use her brain for she goes wild with excitement and will get annoyed quickly if she doesn’t ‘get it’ quick enough.

For example, she can find items by scent and if I put her in a sit then release to find said item oh my god she literally races like a bull bouncing around to find the item and if she can’t locate it she will start getting frustrated.

I have used baby toys with her before, usually she learns quick but I tried her with a toy once where she had to put a plastic ball in a hole and it goes down a slide and pops down the bottom.
She did get it in the end but we had to take a lot of breaks because after 2 or 3 attempts she started getting annoyed, grumbling and biting at the toy.

I think calmer pastimes are generally better for her.

There is so much in your last post that you can work on and that although may not seem to be "dealing" with her reactivity but would help her so much.

Basic impulse control
Learning how she learns and when to reward
Learning how to act in a stressful situation rather than avoiding it eg building up her resistance and optimism
Lets go command when you really cannot avoid other dogs
Teaching her to deal with frustration and making sure your training does not frustrate her to the point she gets annoyed and bites toys
Clever toy play to help relaxation
Look at that to focus on you rather than her environment

Doing this alone will make a huge impact on her general behaviour it will avoid trigger stacking and help her to be able to cope with her reactivity

I can’t think of the website but if you have a google there are actually places you can hire for an hour. Exclusive use. Totally secure. Often have enrichment activities in them. Plenty of space but quiet too. I’ve used them when our bitch was in season. Worth a look.

secure fields

Thanks Detox.

How do I teach her impulse control, appropriate behaviour in a stressful situation and how to deal with frustration though?

She is super obedient and beautifully calm in the house but yes, total 0-60 easily frustrated personality.

I’ve never seen it as a problem truthfully but it would be good to help her with it.

By lets go command do you mean literally coming away from the dog, like a recall?

She can do that already but I don’t use it often because particularly troublesome, recall less dogs continue to follow and harass her and she will whip round every few paces and growl at them and on one occasion a dog was in front of us but it had the same dodgy language she showed to the greyhound - direct stare, tense forward posture.
I said let’s go and she immediately turned tail and trotted back to me just before said dog lunged at her and bit her neck 😡😡

She can do look at that aswell

Collies will think for themselves - as a sheep dog that is a great skill but as a reactive dog a nightmare for us owners hence the 0-60 frustrated personality

Have you heard of Susan Garrett - she has a game called its your choice and a great starting place to build on impulse control - she has books dvd and you tube. I have a dvd you could have if you do want to give your address to a random internet person.

Also a great book called controlled unleashed will help

Most good agility trainers will use these techniques and a 1-2-1 with the right agility trainer will introduce you to this. pm if you want help finding one.

Another online resource is Devon Dog Naughty but Nice resource - this gives loads of games to help build on confidence and impulse control.

I really DO know how hard it is to live with a reactive dog - I literally had sleepless nights with my first reactive dog it was a nightmare but once I found the right help it was life changing. I know actually chose reactive rescue dogs to rehome

There is hope and you are the best owner your dog can have - you know her quirks, she knows you and you will make improvements.

Also do not be too worried about needing off lead running - yes it is good but at the moment you want to get her stress levels as low as possible so if that means calm on lead walks for a while that is ok. Gives you both time to relax.

Mind games will tire her out so look at canine enrichment on facebook for ideas for feeding, that will ditch her bowl get her thinking and get her relaxed.

Lets go is not recall it is a conditioned response so that when you say lets go you can quickly change direction and move away calmly from the trigger eg other dog.

It needs practice in calm situations but then is a valuable tool when in a difficult situation

I doubt she bit them through a muzzle , they probably yelped as they felt threatened. My friend has a border collie who tries to herd everything , most dogs get pissed off with this!

What area are you in?

In the mean time can you not go on very rural walks where your unlikely to meet others or can spot them from a way away ? Might help your confidence and to enjoy your walks again !