Can someone help me with a question about KC registrations!?

[Loserinlove]

Is it the person who is kc registered or just the dog please?

In general you would expect a breeder of a KC recognised breed to register their pups and not doing so may be indicative of an issue somewhere but it’s certainly not as black and white as KC registered = good (or healthy) and unregistered = bad (or unhealthy).

It is an absolute minefield trying to find a good breeder these days as there are so many issues to be aware of.

Being KC reg is no guarantee but there’s no good reason not to register.
Contact the breed club or society. They may even have puppy lists.
I also went to some shows to meet people and get a sense of breeders etc.

Personally, I wouldnt pay much, if any attention to KC registration.

Most puppy farmed pups are kc registered, it is very easy to do!
As long as the parents are registered unendorsed then the pups can be registered also.
The Kennel Club doesn’t insist on anywhere near enough health tests, they aren’t nearly as stringent on home visits as they should be and the have absolutely massacred so many formerly beautiful breeds!
GSD and British Bulldog anyone?!

I personally would focus on the following:

• Do BOTH parents have paperwork for you to view clearly showing they have had the necessary genetic tests for their breed and are scored clear/unaffected?
• is the mum there and does she look like a mummy? Saggy breasts etc.
• What is the temperament of the mum like?
• Does the litter size (assuming your the first buyer) look typical for the breed.

If it is a breed that typically whelps 2 or 3 and there’s 10 pups there for example..

• Do all dogs look clean and healthy and confident?
• Is the breeder keen to ensure you are a suitable owner for their pup, asking you lots of questions?

KC is no proof of anything much other than pedigree.
But having pedigree pups and not registering is a huge red flag.
Puppy farmers forge documents and lie. They bring in a stunt bitch to be “mum”. They may rent a property and bring in a family to make it look more respectable.
You need to start with the breed club.

And imo there are good reasons not to register.

If I ever chose to breed (unlikely) I probably would not KC register for the following reasons:

• They prioritise looks over physical health.

Time and time again highly valued show dogs with seriously concerning physical faults like the Saint Bernard bitch with dodgy eyes, the wonky Crufts GSD, the car crash that is the British bulldog etc are rewarded instead of vilified.

• They prioritise looks over mental health.

Top show winning dogs with piss poor temperaments is no secret. If it has good physical confirmation close to the standard...

• They are destroying the very essence of loved working breeds.

Outside and in! Diluting the very traits that make so many breeds loveable and desired by many and turning all breeds into generic golden retrievers just wearing a different jacket.. Look at a working line German Shepherd, English Setter, English Cocker spaniel and Labrador retrievers and compare to the Kennel Club equivalent. Not only do they look like different breeds, the temperaments can be all wrong aswell. For example, so many show GSD breeders that brag about how friendly their Shepherds are. They are supposed to be aloof! They a GSD that greets everyone with bounce and joy is not exhibiting correct GSD temperament..

• They are aware of genetic diseases within every breed, some very serious but do not insist on ANY health tests?!?!

Health tests are a recommendation! Except in the case of an assured breeder, but even then, it is a couple of the most common diseases that the breeder is required to screen for. That is not adequate in trying to eradicate disease!

• They are nowhere near strict enough in ensuring breeders are acting ethically.

Case after case after case of KC breeder caught with sick dogs in shocking conditions.

• They outright prevent good health of dogs.

Remember the case of the Dalmatian that had pointer blood? An outcross done to try and eradicate the very serious intolerance to purines that afflicts so many Dalmations..

Who would want to support an organisation like that?

Not me!

What happened with the Dalmatian with pointer blood?

How are you supporting the organisation?
My dog is KC reg. As part of that she’s endorsed to stop me (Not that I would) using her to make money and breeding litters without the knowledge or experience to do a good job.
The KC club is very very very far from perfect. But someone who doesn’t register? It’s more likely they are breeding time and time again from the same bitch rather than having your (to be applauded) scruples.
I wish there was a body that had animal welfare as its priority. That cared for health and welfare above all. That a prospective owner could guarantee that buying from a registered breeder guaranteed health tests and a high standard of welfare.
But whilst people continue to puppy shop online and there is no pressure from the consumer to change things? It won’t change. I wish I had the solution.

Because in order to register your litter the fee has to be paid to the Kennel Club and so by paying for KC registration you are supporting the organisation.

That said, I do agree wolfiefan that the majority of non KC breeders out there are not non KC out of genuine concern for dogs but are non KC because they are breeding endorsed dogs or dogs with unknown pedigrees or too many litters etc etc sadly.

Unfortunately, finding a good breeder is no easy task.
I suppose what I am saying is don’t immediately discount a non KC breeder, they may have a very valid reason.

And spot102 most Dalmations have a genetic abnormality that means they don’t absorb purines (a protein in certain foods) properly.
They metabolise it into uric acid which then leads to bladder stones, kidney failure and death.
A Dalmation breeder outcrossed Dalmations to Pointers and successfully eliminated the faulty gene in the resultant puppies.
Because the pups didn’t look like pure dalmations she continued careful breeding to eventually create Dalmation/Pointer crosses that looked exactly like Dalmations.
You couldn’t tell the difference.
And they had no faulty gene causing kidney failure.
Because the healthy dalmations had pointer blood and were therefore not ‘pure’ the KC kicked up a big stink and didn’t want to register them as Dalmations.
Because ‘purity’ was more important than a healthy dog...

It’s unlikely they have a good reason.
The majority of dogs bought in the U.K. aren’t from a decent breeder. It’s shocking when you look into it.
I am highly suspicious. I tend to assume the worst. Hoping that wolfhound no 2 will be from someone I have become real friends with. For me it’s not just about the pup you buy. I know where her mum and dad are. How they live and in what conditions.
Honestly I think a dog licence should be reintroduced. Not a pay a fee and get a licence but something that ensured you had a modicum of common sense.
Breeders? Heaven knows how you regulate that one. I think it has to come from consumer demand. Unfortunately I think too many people are inherently selfish and don’t give a damn what it costs (and I don’t mean money) for them to have their cute pup.

It is unlikely. I agree.
It’s such a sad situation.
I just think people should look at the whole picture eg mum, her condition, number of pups, breeder grilling etc etc etc and be open to the possibility of non KC reg having genuine reason (though unlikely)

The KC did eventually agree to register LUA Dalmatians (remember the ridiculous controversy when Fiona was shown at Crufts?) but they're still very few and far between, I think there's only a couple of breeders in the UK with LUA dogs.

Unfortunately there's still a real culture of purity being paramount, even at the expense of the dogs' health and welfare.

I wish.
My girl’s mum had one litter. She still lives with (and is adored by) the family she has always lived with. She was spayed after having a daft number of pups.
I needed a housecheck and a personal recommendation to even speak to the breeder. She chatted to me on the phone for ages before I was even allowed to meet the pups.
I’ve stayed in contact with not only the breeder but the siblings from that litter too. We have reunions and celebrate their birthdays etc.
KC reg is far from a gold standard. I wish there was an alternative people could trust.

The trouble is I’m quite limited when I can bring a pup home. I want summer as I won’t be working. I work term time only but very few hours but believe summer to be better as I’m at home 24/7.... which as I said limits who has puppies then. One breeder Iv found who isn’t too far has a litter but it will be around Easter which means I’m only around for 2 weeks, I don’t think that’s enough is it? She didn’t respond when I said I wasn’t sure that was enough time for me to be at home.... but she did say he puppies are not to be bred from, which I wouldn’t be. One other breeder that seems to be very thorough who i contacted last year said I wouldn’t be able to have one of her pups unless it was summer but she only breeds smooth.

I was at home for the first month and then I was fortunate that I found someone to take him for daycare.

2 weeks would have definitely not been long enough for us and actually I would have preferred longer than a month if we ever do it again.

I think that as they are a breed that are prone to seoeration anxiety I need to be very careful when it’s a baby hence wanting it to come in the summer. Although I’m not away from the house for more than 2-3 hours when I work I still think summer is better but then I’m limited as to who has a litter?! Or it means not getting what I really wanted...ie the breeder who I feel happy with but she will have smooth in summer and I wanted long...

TBH you’re really limiting yourself. Bitches only have a couple of seasons a year. Good breeders don’t have half a dozen bitches having multiple litters. Better to find someone who can help with looking after a pup if necessary and not end up going to a dodgy breeder so you can get a pup in the right week.

Someone in what capacity? When a puppy is that young I mean? I work 3 days a week but 16 hours and I to and fro from work to home on those days so go to work 2-3 hours, home for an hour then back for 2-3 hours.... how would that work with ‘finding someone to help’? I work minimum wage, so will have to save to be able to afford that and have been saving to buy the puppy and everything it needs. How long would I need someone to help? Not sure how I feel about having a stranger in my house ..

Thanks, Doggy and Whose - I remember the uproar at the time but lost track of it. Had a feeling the KC were going to register them but the breed club was opposed. One of the other objections was to do with the dogs coming from the US (where the program started). Seemed to me an excellent idea, but what do I know?!

I get the feeling there is a lot of vested interests in the KC/Breed clubs and its not necessarily the dog's best. But that's the trouble with any sort of competition (given that one views Crufts as a beauty competition for dogs), people always take it that bit too far (eg with their 'in/line' breeding and exaggerated traits) and I guess probably a fair amount of money involved too. There did seem to be an effort in the KC to improve matters after the Pedigree Dogs expose, but if the attitude of the Dal Club is typical, I can see it being an uphill job.

Sorry, bit of a derail OP. In my defence, I had a Dal with spinal problems, got a lot of help on-line from dachshund sites, and have since felt a mild affinity with them! Plenty of info out there if you do have problems, though. Hope you don't, its not much fun.

Yes, unfortunately I think that is exactly right.
There’s a lot of people who just don’t have the dogs best interests at heart, not just the Kennel Club and certain breed/activity clubs but the profit only driven breeders/puppy farmers also.

It is an absolute minefield and I really hope the OP is successful in finding a really nice little puppy from a really nice breeder with the genuine best interests of the dogs at heart.

Tbh, I think the public outrage of Pedigrees exposed rather than any genuine motivation to change was behind the changes but frankly, the changes made have been so small they are barely recognisable.

And sadly, I think the Dalmation Club probably is fairly typical.

And re the working hours, I agree that 2 weeks off then 3 days of puppy being left for 6 hours with a break in between definitely has the potential of causing separation anxiety issues.

Do you have a friend or relative maybe that would look after it on those three days while your at work?

I personally wouldn’t agree to someone I don’t know extremely well entering my home either.

Daycare (if you find a good one) would be an excellent option but I am fairly sure they don’t accept puppies.

I don’t have anyone that can help. I’m a LP so can’t afford to take unpaid time off work. There seems to be such a mixed response to wether KC was worth it or not..

I work 3 days a week but 16 hours and I to and fro from work to home on those days so go to work 2-3 hours, home for an hour then back for 2-3 hours....how would that work with ‘finding someone to help’?

I work full time but we pay for care. My dog can cope for about 3 hours on his own but any longer and he is gets restless. It might be worth investigating what is around help wise of yours can't cope with being alone when younger.

Some walkers do puppy visits for 30 mins. Some daycares do half days.

Would it be out of order to ask the breeder if they would hold on to it until July? If I offered to pay bed and board? She would have it an extra 3 months... that would be a piss take wouldn’t it?

You can ask but I would be concerned about what socialisation would occur during that time. It's all well and good the puppy getting used to their household and routine but it won't be the same as yours. Then you have the training and more importantly the bonding that would happen. And if you back out after that time they are left with an older puppy they need to home. Also the logistics of who owns the dog, vaccinations, insurance, worming/flea and vet care during that time. Who pays? Who gets the say in what happens?

It's much more than just paying for food and board.

Very true..

I just don’t know what to do!