New puppy viewing

[breakingdownthewalls]

Posted a few times on here, from our dog being put to sleep a few months ago, to husband being adamant he never wanted another, to wanting to find a crossbreed pup but only finding back yard breeders selling them!
Anyway... we have finally found a little of purebred pups that we have all as a family decided on.
They’re coming micro chipped, and K.C. registered, but not vaccinated.
They come with a period of free insurance, food, bowls, toys, puppy pads etc.
We are viewing them tomorrow.
What else do I need to ask?
I’ve asked where they live now and it’s in the house, they’re used to kids, other dogs etc.
The breeder has 4 bitches and they each have a litter a year with 2 studs. All of them live with the breeder. All health checked and have been breeders for 15 years.
What else do I need to ask/look for when we visit.
Not asked about dew claws, should these have been removed? My old rescue dog fractured both dew claws as a puppy and had an op to remove them.

KC resources of checking health tests and the inbreeding ratio: www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/Default.aspx

“The breeders name is different to the owners name on there?
The owner is the name given to me by the person I’m buying the pup from.”

What does that mean? The breeder and the owner are different people? That doesn’t sound right...

“there’s been no health problems in the litters they’ve produced apparently.”

How would they know that without proper health tests if they’re breeding back to back? The first litter wouldn’t have even been fully adult before the next one was in the way...

Searched the studs on that link from the details on the K.C. certificate.
No tests results for either stud, although both studs are K.C. registered dogs so they are who they say they are.

I looked at lots of breeders for cockers (working not show).

Whilst I don't necessarily agree with some of the 'standards' some people adhere to I did my research and decided on what was important for me.

I went to see a few breeders whilst I was still researching and my gut feeling was the best and I am glad I walked away from them.

Do research the health conditions. Understand that health check does not mean health tested (which is done on the parents).

Council registered to me is not something I want in a breeder because it means a high number of litters and thus a business. On the other scale I have walked away from home breeders who were clueless when I asked about PRA testing so it was clear they never even heard of a generic condition so would not understand how genetics and breeding works.

Remember there is no rush, especially as working cockers are a common breed to find.

I'm not so sure I would place so much faith in being KC Registered. My own KC registered pup came with a hereditary issue that wasn't mentioned on his or his parents papers. Much of the information is provided to the kennel club on a good faith basis and are therefore worthless. It took a lot of digging, cross checking and perseverance for us to uncover that our vet-recommended, KC and Council registered breeder was a low level puppy farmer.

The cost of the house - means nothing.

That these pups aren't vaccinated is very odd. For a reputatable breeder to have them unsold seven at 8 weeks is really odd. How many litters have these bitches had?

Anything else I need to enquire about?

Age of the mum. You need to check her health tests also.
Pictures of her with the same puppies you are viewing (when they were younger - i.e, supporting evidence that she is really their dam)
Meet both parents and spend time with them to check temperament. Especially mum but as dad should be there too, meet him also.
See the draft sale contract
Relationship of mum and dad (i.e. are they related, if so, how).

Ok. So the KC records I’ve seen are for the bitch and stud. The owner owns both.
Both their kc numbers on their but no health records.
The stud that fathered the owners male dog however is from a very well known breeder, who when you google has 20+ years experience and is the largest exporter of spaniels in the U.K.

I’ve got no doubt these people are genuine.
Just double checking myself as don’t want to mess up.

If you want a cocker spaniel go to www.uggeshallkennels.co.uk/default.aspx

How come the owners name is on the K.C. paperwork if they’ve been shipped in?

Dog pregnancies aren't long and it's easy to plan in advance when you run a puppy-farming racket.

Please don't go to see these pups, they're not being bred responsibly and you absolutely don't want to contribute to the misery caused by dog-dealers. Rescues regularly have pups, just hang on and one will come along.

So the KC records I’ve seen are for the bitch and stud. The owner owns both.

This alone is a negative in responsible breeding. They're not breeding for better spaniels, they're breeding for money.

Quite honestly OP you may as well just revert to the original plan and buy a crossbreed pup if you purchase one of these pups as these breeders sound similarly irresponsible as the breeders of so called designer cross breeds .

Run away and do not look at the puppies

They are 12 weeks old and had a pet sitter _ this alone would mean I would not touch them. The puppies will have missed vital socialisation and could have issues from this alone.

More important that what questions you should ask - what questions have the breeder asked you. A good breeder will grill you before they sell you one of their puppies

It’s just so difficult.
Myself and my husband both had dogs which were probably a result of back yard breeding. This was 10+ years ago when it was very common, mine was found in a house and my husband bought his off a farm.
Both were fine.
Now we are trying to be responsible and buy kc registered, insured, health checked, knowledgeable breeder bred dog, and potentially we are ending up with the same thing but for 3 x the price!

They are breeding purely for the cash.

Tbh, they’re all healthy so far isn’t good enough...there’s no real reason not to do health tests apart from either they didn’t want to spend the money (which is pretty heartless) or they think the results would be bad and they’re breeding anyway.

You can take a gamble and your puppy might be fine, but I had my dog PTS on Monday at 6 years old after a (much shorter than it should have been) life of painful, stressful and expensive health issues.

If your breeder cared about the health of the puppies, they would have done all the health tests and they wouldn’t be breeding back to back.

So I really doubt however much they’re talking the talk just now that they’ll be there to support you if your gamble doesn’t pay off and they definitely won’t be the ones there in the vets with you while you decide it’s time your by then much loved pet has to go...

But it could work out for you... if you’re happy to take that risk.

Decent breeders will leave you feeling as though you have been interviewed for a job! Often they will match a pup with you. Odd that they don't already have homes/waiting list.

The age thing is a huge red flag for me.

A good breeder would have had people lined up for those pups by the time they were 4 weeks old at the latest, so conveniently having a family illness from 8 weeks when they should have been going home till now is a huge red flag

Puppy farmers

A lot of us here are experienced dog people OP

The majority of us are saying this does not sound good. Too many litters, key socialisation with a pet sitter, queries over vaccinations, not health testing.

I wouldn't buy from this breeder. I don't think you should either. If you go, chances are you'll end up taking one because turning down and walking away from a puppy is hard!

And living in a fancy house doesn't mean they're good responsible people. Look at Donald Trump!

Listen to tabula. Please.
And don’t bother with the link posted by @totallyliterally either. They seem to have 13 breeding bitches. So another business.

So the breeder wanted them to go 4 weeks ago, but due to family illness etc they’ve hung onto them for another 4 weeks as breeder hasn’t been around to sort them going to new homes. Apparently been in hospital so they’ve had a pet sitter there.
They’re shipped in. Guaranteed. My aunt bought a puppy like this. Apparently the owners had been away and unable to home the puppies prior hence why they were a bit older. When she arrived to look at them there were thirteen puppies, they were Maltese. a Maltese bitch would in no circumstances be capable of producing thirteen puppies.... Added to that, they demanded cash payment..... She bought the puppy.She was very lucky as there have been no health problems etc, but it could so easily have been different.

Also, how much are you paying for this pup? You do realise that four litters of say four puppies a year is a hell of a lot of money to be making from breeding? Especially as the puppies are not vaccinated?

And letting the pups go before Christmas is grossly irresponsible. All the rescues have adverts everywhere warning of puppies which become available over the Christmas period and why.

KC paperwork isn't worth anything and doesn't mean anything really. It's irrelevant unless you're showing also.

Agree with all posters saying that one litter a year is too many. But it's also how many litters they have in their lifetime also - I thought responsibly it was one or two litters.

There is, unfortunately no real way of knowing. But there are so many red flags with this story that I would have to walk away. I know it's hard because you think you've found one - but there will be others. I'd also report the breeder to see if anyone thinks it's worth investigating - based on all the PP's advice here

I agree with all that's been said. That the puppies are 12 weeks old and haven't been adequately socialised yet would be enough to put me off. No DNA or health testing? Yearly or 18 monthly breeding from the bitches? Not lining up new owners prior to mating or at the latest when the puppies are very young?

It all smacks of irresponsible breeding at best, puppy farming at worst. I'm not sure why you'd want to risk it and go ahead with one of these puppies when there are lots of other breeders of these puppies around who will be so much more reliable. You've said about the cost. You're going to be handing over a large sum of money, you want to make sure you get the best puppy you can for your money.

There are lots of working cocker puppies as breeds go and even amongst all of them you can usually find a fair few that will have dna tested the parents etc.

Just be aware for tail docking and dew claw removal. If the dogs are headed for work then this is usually done by default but you must make sure you see and get the vet paperwork for the tail docking to prove that it was done legally. However, mine wasn't docked and claws removed because despite being down the working line the breeder said her puppies were for the pet market and didn't do that by default and actually that suited me as I wanted a full waggy tail.

I would walk away, something very fishy about their story 😠 no health tests registered with the KC and to many litters a year.

For breeders of cocker spaniels look on champdogs 🙂