Behaviour/dominance theory etc

[Strawberryshortcake40]

Have 6 year old dog.
Got puppy 7 weeks ago.
Expected no issues. Has been horrendous ever since.
Finally bit that bullet and had behaviourist in last week. V expensive but I was desperate for help.

I've been told problem is my dog who thinks she is pack leader. That if she gets chance she will kill the puppy so i must keep them separate. That she's dangerous to have around my children. That all the things I thought were her being affectionate are dominance and need to be stopped.

I'm so upset. Am trying to put all the suggestions into place and teach her to behave better but she's so unhappy. She has barely got out of her bed every day. When we go for a walk it's such a palaver to go out "correctly" that it's half hour till we get out of the door. Doing mealtimes "properly" means me getting the kids up at 6am so they are fed before the animals and the puppy is hysterical by the time she gets some food.

I feel I have been doing everything "wrong", yet never realised. I thought I just had a happy, bouncy dog who loved us all. But now I have a house of shut doors, a puppy I can't housetrain because she can't get to the garden, and my children terrified to go near the dog :(

You can totally stop eating first, it’ll make no difference to your dog whatsoever!!!

Where did you find the behaviourist? Are they qualified and registered with a professional body?

I'm beginnning to think this is a wind up but a link that may be of interest

introducing new puppy to dog

My dc currently won't go near the dog. I felt I had to warn them to be careful with her as it seemed so dire what I was told. The thought of her hurting them is awful.
I'm a bit scared of her now too :(

She has happily accepted so many changes in her life and never done anything naughty after puppyhood. Content to be alone or just chilling. She does barge me out of the way to get to the door and sticks her head in the fridge if I open it and stuff like that but I never thought of that as her dominating me?

I can assure you it isn't a wind up.

Yes behaviourist well known and respected, qualified etc etc. I've also spoken to another one since who has said more or less the same.

Name the behaviourist or at least give the qualifications because they are not giving current up to date advice. If you want to pm a rough area I can give you an uptodate current behaviourist who will give you information and a training plan or advice that will be more effective.

Barging past you is just excitement to get where she wants to get to. Putting her head into the fridge is just so that she can smell the food absolutely no dominance at all. You can train her better manners not to do this but it is not dominance. She is not planning to take over the world of dominate your family at all.

I'm no expert but that all sounds like normal dog behaviour to me. Fridges and doors are exciting, they mean food and walks! If you don't like that behaviour you could train her not to do it but by using positive reinforcement. I think a stair gate a pp suggested is a great idea.

Sounds like she's much loved pet OP, I'm sorry you've been sold crap advice.

The eating first thing is complete nonsense, as is everything else he's told you. What you were doing with the cheese/bacon is absolutely perfect (except don't give them bacon - the saltiness of it is really bad for them. Ditto gammon) - she needs to associate good things with the puppy, and at the moment, all that's happening are bad things.

Our cocker growls constantly, and barks, and whines. The growling actually is the least annoying part of her constant vocalisations. 🙄 She growls when she wants to go out, when she wants to come in, when she wants to play, when her pine cone has rolled under the sofa, when she wants her dinner, when she wants you to open the door to the kitchen. She often growls at her dinner, sometimes for considerable time, when she doesn't consider it sufficiently interesting. She also does the cocker 'woowoowoo' and a strange sort of gargling howl. Cockers are very vocal dogs.

If she grumbles at your children when they try to lift her off the sofa, but gets off for a treat, then the solution is very simple - tell them not to lift her but to use a treat! We've had exactly the same issue with my DD. We got her to treat the dog more respectfully and built up their bond with play and feeding. She still grumbles occasionally if DD moves her, but rarely. Growling is communication, that is all.

I will pm you her name. Not putting it on here sorry. Will also tell you my area. Although to be frank it took me a month to save up enough to see this one so I won't be contacting anyone else just yet!

Some articles on why dominance is rubbish

dominance in dogs!

debunked dominance theory

truth about dominance theory

She gets overexcited when it's walktime and jumps up/barks etc. Which is one of the things I'm trying to correct. But every morning this week it has taken me half hour to get out of the house to walk her. By which time I'm running out of time and she's obviously utterly pissed off with me!!

Why would it be a wind up?

I was asking about registration because there are only a couple worth anything...

Just try to think of things from your dog's perspective: she is happy, loved and secure, then from out of nowhere, a bouncy young dog appears in her territory. She has a go at it, putting it in its place. The puppy stays around, so she grumpily tolerates its presence, telling it in no uncertain terms to keep a respectful distance by growling/snarling//even snapping when it approaches. Suddenly, though, in addition to this massive change of there being another dog in her home, everyone starts treating her very differently. Their body language changes, they aren't fussing her/playing with her like they normally do. Everything is different, routines have changed, doors are close which weren't closed before, feeding happens differently, etc etc. No wonder she's hardly getting out of her bed! Dogs are very sensitive to routines and to our body language.

Please stop this nonsense that you've been told and go back, as much as possible, to how things were for her before. Give her time to get used to the new dog. Lots of positive reinforcement - teach her to associate the pup with good things. Walk them together in a neutral environment. Let her tell off the puppy when necessary - pups are annoying and they learn their manners by being taught them by other dogs. If she's growling/snarling/snapping (without drawing blood) then that's all fine ; it's how dogs communicate. How does the pup react when she does that?

You'll get very good advice on this forum: www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php

I highly recommend these books
Culture Clash
In Defence of Dogs

Just seen your other updates, what you have been told sounds awful regarding having to eat first and no treats etc. No wonder big dog is unhappy, first a new in your face puppy is forced upon her and now she is getting shut out and no treats.

Just like everything else in life you will get good and bad trainers and good and bad behaviourists.

This is horrendous advice from this behaviourist and I am sickened that shit like this is still being peddled (and money charged for!).

Leaning on you: my spaniel does this. It is worth knowing that very young puppies have an inbuilt reflex that causes them to cry when the side of their body is not touching something warm. It's how they know they are safe with mum or the litter. When they are not body-to-body with another living being they cry for help. That is how they are built. I suspect the leaning is much more to do with some residual instinct than anything else.

Eating first: this is so crazy I could laugh it is wasn’t your life and money being effed up by this shit. Dog’s do not keep track of who has eaten before them.

Over excited when someone comes to the door: this is every friendly dog, ever, because dogs are social animals. The only ones who don’t do this are either worried by the door or have been trained to remain calm.

Will sit in sofa space if you move: of course she will. It’s warm and smells of you. Perfect! (mine does this ALL THE TIME and is about as “dominant” as a fart). The fact that she growls is not brilliant, but I suspect she tried it once or twice and it resulted in her being left alone so now she thinks it’s the way to stay where she is. Lure her off with a treat and use a command at the same time (e.g. “off”). Eventually you won’t need the treat. Obviously the kids shouldn’t deal with a growling dog but as an adult you can step in the make sure growling doesn’t result in her being left on the sofa. You don’t have to be confrontational about it. You just need to make sure the dog realises that growling does not get her what she wants.

Pulls on the lead: Yep, another thing that ALL dogs do until they are trained not to. As Bitey has said, spaniels are particularly ‘bad’ for this. My springer is 8 months old and if we have 50% of the walk in which he’s not pulling my arm off, I consider that a successful walk. He is still learning. We simply stop walking if he pulls too hard and I encourage him back to my side. If he doesn’t pull I walk quickly so that there is a clear difference between pulling = he doesn’t get to move forward and not pulling = he gets to move forward at pace.

In terms of the older dog and puppy. I would be tempted to watch them carefully with an open mind to see whether or not the older dog would really hurt the pup. I say this because we introduced a springer to a 12 year old Jack who is growly. If the pup is bouncy. I watched her carefully and realised that the growling and snarling were all perfectly normal warnings to the pup. She never once hurt him. There was one occasion where my hand was accidently in the way when she snapped at him (he is furry and she didn’t realise my hand was in there). I felt teeth contact but no pressure. She was and remains entirely in control when telling the springer off. So I allow her to. I also supervise to make sure he is not a pest. After a telling off, I simply move on with the day and if the pup looks like he hasn’t listened, I separate him.

Dogs are not dominant and (imo) don’t even ‘like’ boundaries. What they like is routine. They like to know what is happening and what will happen if they do x, y or z. Your older dog’s routine has been messed up by the pup and now her humans are responding differently to how they used to. TatterdemalionAspie’s advice and book recommendations are spot on.

I tried to keep her routine the same when puppy arrived as much as possible. I take the puppy on the school run with me (in car to socialise her and keep her out of dogs way. Also I thought dog would feel calmer if puppy wasn't here and pup would howl and poo everywhere as she does if I leave her,

But apparently that's bad as then dog feels puppy is top dog?

She does get meals earlier now because of puppy but she seems happy about that!

Puppy sleeps upstairs (not ideal and a separate problem) but dog has always slept in the kitchen and never even tried to go upstairs.

I had been letting dog and puppy interact with me close at hand. But can't do that now unless they are both on a slip lead and I correct dog every time she growls. I can't get anything done in that case, not exactly ideal to try and stack the dishwasher or make a coffee like that!

Don't correct big dog when they growl. Your dog growling is telling the puppy that she is too close and to back off. Growling is basic communication and the puppy will understand or learn to understand what it means. If you stop the growling how will big dog be able to communicate - only by upping the anti and this may cause fighting or a bite.

If big dog is growling remove the puppy not correct big dog .

You really do need to have a trainer in to help you - this is not a behavourist issue from what you describe so will be much cheaper to sort out.

Contact one of these people near you

IMDT

APDT

Also please get over the top dog. None of the dog feel or want to be top dog this does not exist in dog world.

Your big dog is just unsettled by a new bouncy puppy entering and upsetting the situation not at all worried by status or wanting to be boss. Dogs just do not do top dog

“ I correct dog every time she growls.”

Absolutely don’t do that, growling is a sign of not being happy, if you correct her for growling you’re doing nothing about the fact that she’s unhappy just suppressing the sign, so potentially she’ll skip that sign and profess to a much more serious one.

I was removing the puppy! That was what I did everytime.

But apparently I need to "correct" dog by poking her shoulder, until she stops.

I could do this all day, she won't stop and I'm fed up of it being a battle :(

So there's no pack thing?
My dog isn't going to attack my children because she thinks she's in charge and has to discipline them? Because I can't even begin to tell you how scared all of that makes me.

You have been given great advice here and I just wanted to add that my cocker is EXACTLY the same as yours. We only have her but when meeting bouncy pups on walks she tells them off very loudly. She even pins them down at times. If a pup is calm she will happily play with it. Your big dog is just trying to teach pup good manners and it is a great way for pups to learn, of course be close by just in case but it does all sound normal.

My girl is growly with my son as he has the weakest bond with her and has snapped when he has annoyed her and ignored her growls but he has never been hurt by her.

With a bit of time and patience I'm sure you will have two happy dogs.

WHAt are the behaviourists qualifications?

Are they an APBC member? Because if not, they aren’t actually a behaviourist and I would be astonished if you got that advice from the APBC.

Please do PM me if you like - I work in the field.

It sounds as if you have an anxious resource-guarding dog who is strongy bonded to you and resents sharing any of her resources or people with a puppy. You need socialisation training (not socialisation in the puppy sense) but reinforcement of pro-social behaviourso that your old dog associates the puppy with gaining resources, not losing them.

There’s a great Useful resources thread in Doghouse if you search and it has many good training links.

Re: growling - never punish this - it’s her telling you she’s anxious - if you punish her for communicating rather than addressing the source of the anxiety you’ll break down your relationship with her and force her to ‘shout louder’ I.e. snap or bite, to communicate her fears.

There is no pack thing.

However I can not say that you dog will not attack your children or your dog is not feeling fear so will not react BUT poking her in the shoulder and stopping her tell the puppy off is much more likely to cause her to become frustrated and bite.

Today what I would try and do is bring all the stress levels in the house down. You the dog and the children.

If possible let big dog have her space and not have any interaction with the puppy. Do you have stair or door gates to keep puppy away from big dog?

Let big dog have a quiet walk - if possible on their own. After the walk when big dog is tired get the best treats ever, a bit of cheese, chicken etc and let big dog see puppy (have someone have puppy on a lead and have puppy concentrating on them) and feed the big dog loads of little treats. If he looks at puppy even better treat him then, if he growls ignore big dog but maybe move puppy further away.

Do this for a very short time maybe only seconds then remove puppy and let big dog have some peace away from puppy.

I would do this for a few days and then start walking the dogs together parallel again not letting puppy hassle big dog. Do not expect the dogs to love each other and cuddle up just tolerating is fine for most dogs.

Have you said what breed big dog is and I right puppy is a spaniel?

Where are the two dogs now?

sorry for typos freezing cold hands after being out with my dogs!