Checking out a breeder

[DontShootMeDown]

Hi,

I want to make sure we don’t support an unethical breeder when we get our puppy. Please don’t tell me to go to a rescue, I know that’s what many people feel is the only ethical way to get a dog, but it’s not for us. We want a very specific type of dog, plus we have a four year old so many rescues won’t consider us.

So we have found a breeder who seems great. She interviewed us first, asked to meet us face to face, had us in her home where we saw the mum and dad dogs, saw mum feeding pups, she showed us all their paperwork and health checks, asked us to sign a contract including promise to return the puppy if we can’t cope. She has an FB group for all her past Puppy owners and the owners on their seem very happy. She clearly adores her dogs.

My only reservation is she owns thirty five dogs. Thirty five! We saw them all. And she has quite a few litters a year albeit from different mums and no mum will ever have more than four litters in a lifetime. After four litters she spays the mum but keeps them as a loved family pet. We saw our our pup’s great grandmother.

Is owning this many dogs a red flag or in the context do you think it’s ok? They were all clean and happy looking and she has a huge garden and seemed to lavish them with love.

Also is there anything else I should check?

Thanks

Agreed, cornflake. So IF this crazy dog lady, who may well have a way of properly caring for these dogs, has done all necessary health tests, is giving the pups all the proper care and socialisation, is doing it with a genuine desire to produce great family pets,is doing her best to ensure they are going to good homes and is prepared to take the dog back if need be, there shouldn't be a problem with OP buying a dog from her or with the fact that it is a cross.

I am interested in why a cross? What features do you want that makes you think a cross is most suitable?

The good breeders spend time socialising, training and playing with the puppies before they leave. I do not believe this litter could be raised in the way I personally would want them to be when the breeder has 35 dogs.

Not all show dogs are deformed either, yes some breeds are compromised for the ring but many many show dogs are good and functional examples of the breed. I don't have any personal interest in showing (dogs that is!) but I can appreciate the time and effort gone into the careful planning of litters to produce breed standard dogs.

There are lots of reasons to breed. To create working dogs or show dogs or just healthy family pets.
No way would a pup from this breeder be properly socialised. No way would it have had enough attention. Pups need to get used to being handled, having their ears etc checked, having a brush run over them. They need to be used to different people and household sounds etc. Ideally they will be on the way to being toilet trained too.
Stuck in a kennel when the breeder has 40 plus dogs to look after? Never going to happen.

Can you honestly not find a suitable cross-breed in any rescue in the UK? There are plenty who will home to sensible families with young children who can offer a good lifestyle. There are oodles and oodles of poodles and doodles out there, along with pedigrees and wonderful mix-ups. Please save a life instead of supporting someone who breeds for cash.

There is actually a shit load of doodles and other crosses in rescue. Usually because the uniformed have bought a poodle x in the misbelief it will be hypoallergenic/non shedding, only to get it home and find it isn’t.

There’s a rescue called many tears in wales who pick up the puppy farm pieces. They quite often have puppies in. Although i have seen them questioned as a rescue- if they keep taking in the puppy farm overflow, it does nothing to discourage them.

k that she gives the mums vitamins and calcium while they are pregnant. seems to me that they are well looked after and she is breeding and looking after them properly and they are house reared its not puppy farming, she is doing their health checks and is passionate about their diets so it sounds like she is very caring and a good breeder.

Health checks are not the same as health TESTS.
One is a vet saying “this dog is healthy” the other is proving that is actually true.

It is puppy farming if she has no reason to breed puppies other than to make money. Just like a beef farmer rears cows to sell and a carrot farmer grows carrots as an income.

Breeders who breed properly aren't doing it for the money and they certainly don't feel the need to put more mongrels ou there while perfectly nice dogs are being killed every day. I don't know how people can sleep at night if they support puppy farmers, it's not what dog-lovers do.

The OP, nor the puppy farmer can possible love dogs.

Is it just the morality of making money out of aninals that people object to or is there a practical real life reason for the opposition?

No. Not for me. It's way more than that. My second pup came from the most amazing breeder. She does not do it for profit, when you breed well there really isn't a lot of profit in most breeds and certainly not if you factor in the time and effort, required to raise the puppies properly. In fact I know some one who breeds a breed that usually has 1-3 pups - if the bitch has 1pup she looses quite a lot of money, if bitch has 2pups she might just break-even, so long as there are no complications, if it's 3pups and no complications she makes a couple of hundred - for 24/7 round the clock care for over 3months (bitch before whelping and the breed need the pups to stay with mum until 12weeks, as they are a slow developing breed).

A breeder who is breeding for profit isn't going to bother with the hours and hours of active care and the 24/7 person available care that produces well socialized pups that are going to go onto be brilliant adult dogs who excel as pet or working dog (dependent on which they were bred for). Someone who is in it for the money will do the bare minimum necessary for the pups to be saleable - why put in the extra effort when it won't make you money? Just mean you've done a heck of a lot more work for the same money.

I think with my first pup there was an element of it being about profit, although the health tests were all done and breeder clearly loved his dogs, he had just over 20 bitches living in the house (of various ages, only some were of breeding age) and two stud dogs living in posh kennels, who spent time in the kitchen too. (You can't have bitches with pups and stud dogs around them without it creating stress). The dogs were nice and happy. My pup was from good lines with known good health. He was average in the amount of work a pup requires when first come home. So it seemed good - until that is I had my second pup.

My second pup came from a woman who is vice President of the area breed club and a national breed club. She produces top quality show dogs (from a breed that hasn't got deformities bred into it). She breeds when she wants to add another dog to her family (which happens to also be show dogs), she definitely wanted them to go to the best homes possible and she definitely spared no expense in ensuring that she was breeding healthy puppies with good temperament. Most importantly she wanted to ensure they would be of the best well rounded temperament to ensure they had the best possible chance of staying in the right home. She had socialised the puppies to such a high standard. They came house trained (new owners all picked up between 8.5 & 9.5weeks old), they knew sit and to sit for you to open doors, they were all very confident (literally nothing fazed them), they were used to traveling in the car, had been to the vets for check ups, you could touch him all over, hold him still, mess about with his ears and paws and he just let you. He has been a ridiculously easy puppy, as I haven't really had to do anything. He is a really easy going, go anywhere, totally confident pup. You can see how much work she must have put in to have got them all to such a high standard of early socialisation and confidence. She didn't leave them home alone at all until after the pups had left for new homes. Not only did she put it in her contract that they were to be returned to her if you didn't want them for any reason, she also had a full refund policy in the first month and a reduced refund after that date because she wanted to ensure someone didn't go sell them on gumtree, preloved, etc, to recoup costs if it didn't work out for any reason, at all.

So I would say someone in it for profit, is highly unlikely to have put enough effort in to the socialisation to produce brilliant puppies.

Also did you see my bit about the serious red flag she breeds pedigree and crossbreeds! (You said parents were KC registered and you saw the grandparents too, yet pups are crossbreed).

I did see that Swimming. She usually breeds pure breeds, most of her dogs are pedigree but has done three litters of poodles crossed with that breed.

For money. How do you know it's just three litters.

Because she told me and because her FB Page is like a diary of every dog’s life day by day, photo by photo. She’s an over sharer. She even has a photo wall in her house of every Puppy ever bred by her. You will say it’s a con but I met her and she’s not clear brained enough to con.

So what's her thinking behind breeding that particular cross?

Ah cockerpoos! Why did I know it would be cockerpoos

You will say it’s a con but I met her and she’s not clear brained enough to con

I don't think it's her that's not clear brained.

Also, cocker x poodles (you realise cockapoo isn't a thing? It's a made up word to con people into buying a mongrel) can be a nightmare to own. Why do you want a dog that could inherit the negative traits of both breeds? Then it'll end up in rescue. Absolutely ridiculous. You're delusional.

She usually breeds pure breeds, most of her dogs are pedigree but has done three litters of poodles crossed with that breed.

Check independently (i.e. not just asking the breeder) how many litters each bitch used for cross breeding has had and when they had them. It’s not unusual for dodgy breeders to produce the maximum number of litters of pedigrees they can register with the KC then either switch to crosses or alternate pedigree and cross litters so they’re breeding on back to back seasons.

It’s worth setting up a MyKC account (they’re free) for doing this kind of research.

The bottom line is that no way can she be giving a litter of puppies the right amount of care and attention with 35 dogs there...

The FB group is advertising.
Did you find this person online?
Why are they breeding crosses and why would this particular cross suit you?

If she over shares to that degree then check which bitches are shown with cross bred litters, then use 'My KC' to check if those bitches have also had pedigree litters. If so when and how many in comparison to when and how many cross bred litters. You need to check the average season time spacing for the dam and make sure it isn't a bitch being used to alternate pedigree and crossbred and get a litter off every season or a bitch that has bred 4 KC litters and then bred some crosses. That's one of the biggest difficulties with cross breeds - there is no independent verification of how many litters and when, so makes it the perfect way to over breed. I would never buy any pup, pedigree or crossbreed, from a breeder who breeds both pedigrees and crossbreeds. You have to seriously question their motives and how truthful they are being about how many litters and when.

I have a crossbreed who is the worst of both breeds He also has health problems of both breeds and personality traits that don't quite go together.

I love him but I certainly wouldn't have paid fortunes for him (he's a rescue) and I'm sure that I would have been better off with a well bred example from either breed.

OP make sure she isn't breeding the bitches more than the KC states is acceptable but to be honest you sound pretty sold on them anyway.

Of course it’s a poodle cross.

What is the poodle going to bring to the dog? Is it the idea of the non shedding, hypoallergenic coat? If that is important, the only way to guarantee it is to get a poodle. Crosses have roughly a 1:4 chance in inheriting that coat, so maybe only one per litter, if that. That’s how they end up in rescue.

It isn’t actually a cocker/poodle cross, but it is a poodle cross.