Sorry, but ...

[Whitney168]

The breeder recommendation on the other thread just gives so much opportunity for more ways to teach people how to spot puppy farmers! I don't want either the OP or the person who gave the recommendation to think I am personally attacking them, that is absolutely not my motivation.

We just need people to start recognising the cobblers these people tell prospective purchasers and some of the more accurate reasons behind it. So, from that particular breeder's website, some gems that would ring alarm bells for me.

We offer to keep all our puppies up until 12 weeks of age. We charge £10 per night to keep a puppy after 8 weeks of age

Good grief, what a nice little racket they have going here, dressed up as selflessness and helpfulness. Any decent breeder will have thoroughly vetted their buyers, and once they have agreed to let a puppy go they would certainly not charge to keep it if there were some extentuating circumstances that meant it needed to stay a little longer - let alone at £10 a day!

WE ARE DRIVING PAST CAN WE STOP OFF AND HAVE A LOOK ROUND?
I’m afraid we will say no if you contact us asking this question.
Your appointment slot will be up to 45 minutes long and must not be exceeded.
Should you be early you must not pull up and wait on our premesis and must find somewhere local to stay e.g. a cafe.

Very controlled contact and appointments for this breeder, and restricting people seeing how many buyers are coming and going. A good breeder will not limit your time to ask questions and make sure you have all the info you need about them (and vice versa).

copies of dads KC reg and DNA PRA certificate (we do not give copies of mums paperwork out as we are not selling to breeding homes)
And also presumably because the poor mums are not of any discernible breed, not health tested despite their fine words - plus they don't want anyone to be able to track the number of bitches and how many litters they are having.

Deposits will be taken on a first come first serve basis

In fact, their whole T&Cs demonstrates that these are just business transactions.

Gah, I could go on ... and on ... and on. Suffice it to say that there is nothing wholesome and fluffy about this breeder, or any other like it, despite the lovely website. Their bitches are a factory line, kept in a dark barn in cages.

I say it regularly and will say it again - if you don't take steps to avoid this, you are supporting it!

@HoppingGreen - what made you come to believe that it was a puppy farm after all? If you don't mind sharing then that would be useful.

I agree with you that it's not as simple as people just not bothering to find out.

that it's not as simple as people just not bothering to find out. Actually I think it is that simple. If you buy a poodle x or other currently desirable crossbreed then it will be from a puppy farm and people really need to stop kidding themselves.

I too am losing patience with this argument.

A few months ago I was blocked from a puppy farmer's FB page for asking how many breeding bitches they currently had and where did they go after having their three litters ( which is what they claimed the limit was ) The same page was covered with posts if grateful new owners and their fluffy puppies.

@RebeccaWithTheGoodHair I'm sorry but to suggest that getting a pup has anything in common with buying a used car is bloody daft!
A pup is a living being. It's health and wellbeing and how socialised it is will have a lot to do with the breeder. Plus people who buy from puppy farmers are condemning the parent dogs to lives of complete and utter bloody misery. All so they get what they want when they want it.
I was chatting to someone in rescue recently. They took some bitches from a puppy farm. When you put them on a table for a vet exam they lift their bums. They are so used to being forced to mate. It's routine for them. Poor bloody animals.
But hey people want their cocka doodles

It was an analogy because people do use the internet to search for important things. Bloody hell then even come on MN to ask for recommendations and get given them!!

I am not, as you well know, condoning puppy farming. I am merely pointing out that it's not as simple as people rocking up to a filthy shed and picking a cute one and handing over £900 or whatever.

The way to change it is, to my mind, more stringent advice from the KC, better education by explaining how puppy farmers operate not berating people because they just don't know. And finally promoting breed rescue societies rather than breeders.

Although I am not a staunch supporter of the KC and thing they do get things wrong, it is unfair to tar them with this brush - many people buy these crossbreeds to avoid the 'evil Kennel Club', so not sure what they could do to influence anything really. They are trying to do some education, and although I think their Accredited Breeders Scheme misses the mark, there have been some changes from feedback and we can only hope for more.

Absolutely agree with the better education around how puppy farmers operate, and with acknowledging that as an industry they are very good at changing as people do become more wary.

Two more things that would ring alarm bells with me on posts today on this subject:

• The poster above who commented that the sellers had only one dog and litter might have raised alarm bells with me that this was a set-up, but it is so bloody difficult to cover off everything without ruling out the good breeders too.

• Another poster commented about their great breeder who has pedigree litters 'and the occasional cross-bred litter' - classic trick to circumvent the welfare rules the KC put in place to limit number of litters and too young/old mothers and get some extra money in between.

I do think that there is a lot of information out there now, various stories such as this week's Little Rascals licence renewal have received quite a lot of media coverage. Unfortunately I do also believe a lot of people choose not to look too closely. All we can do is hope that every thread like this stops some people supporting it, as I know many would be mortified to feel they had.

The reality is that the KC is also a commercial organisation. They make money from KC registrations, whether from decent breeders or large scale puppy farmers, hence the reluctance to act against dodgy breeders even in the face of welfare concerns.

rebecca when we Were due to collect our pup I phoned and the lady said she wouldn't be there as she was going away for a few days so we rearranged
Then when we turned up the pup was the only dog there, no mum or sibs. The people who lived there were also different except for the lady handing over the dog. In the course of the conversation it came out that she didn't actually live there. She also took a while to find the correct papers as the KC " had sent too many" . His pedigree name relates to Christmas but he was born at the beginning of November. Lady dropped into the conversation that the pup " travelled very well in he car". When we got home and took him to the vet she said he wasn't in great condition and that his vaccination certificate didn't make sense. We bought him from a house in Yorkshire but he was registered at a farm in Wales
All small things but added up its bloody obvious - vet agrees and says it's not uncommon for the puppy farmers to do it that way

Oh, and he's NOT a doodle of any kind!!

Thanks Hopping - I hope he has a lovely life with you, sure he will, and I'm really sorry for you finding out that. Bastards, preying off people who want to do the right thing.

Yep. Bastards. Utter bastards.
(NOT YOU HOPPING!!!!!)
My girl is a bit under the weather. Had bloods done today and I've been really worried. Both breeders (mum co owned) have been emailing back and forth all day to offer advice and support.
I once read that you should consider a breeder as a kind of in law! They will be a part of your pup's and family life in some way forever!

Thanks rebecca
He's been here 18 months now and after a lot of work, tonnes of love and input from professionals he's a lovely boy ( most of the time)

wolfie hope your girl is ok
My 2nd favourite breed ( after mine of course)

Not sure @Hoppinggreen
Waiting on bloods. Totally off food. Best guess at moment is phantom pregnancy. Hoping it's not an infection of some kind. Anxious first time pup mum here.

Some people just want a puppy and don't care! I have had a few litters and experienced some shocking behaviour from potential owners.
Like the one who quite happily would have sent a cheque (full price) through the post without seeing the puppy or mum. Or the one who got very vocal because I suggested she should only but one puppy and get 2nd in 12-18 months, when 1st is settled.
Or the parents who want to buy a pet dog for their toddler - because he likes animals and dog will get used to the child from early on! (They never had a dog or knew anything about dogs!)
Sadly it's people like the above who will keep puppy farms and rescue centres) in business.
I think you can but a good puppy from a breeder without spending years on a waiting list. I know some who will only advertise / make litters public once puppies are around 4-6 weeks old. In the end, it's about gut feeling and what you are comfortable with.

Have been debating with myself this afternoon re joining in...but will offer my experiences.
Twenty five years ago when wanting to find a Labrador puppy, DH and I went to Crufts, noted the name of a lady judge and I (can’t believe my cheek) rang her and asked if she could help us locate a puppy. Back in the day before googling etc. I think she could have given me short shrift but put me on to a breeder friend of hers who had one black lab puppy available for a family rather than show home. We went, fell in love and brought her home. Breeder said that she wouldn’t make show grade because she would be too short for breed standard. We didn’t make much of this but true enough when she was full grown she was indeed 1 inch shorter than show standards. She lived to 16 and a half, much loved member of the family.
When black lab was eight, we decided to have another smaller dog. Followed the kennel club route and found a breeder of Lancashire Heelers. Arrived and found two litters. The dog we had come to see was rather weedy looking and we soon looked at the chunky looking chap in the other litter. Breeder happy to sell us this one rather than the one we had reserved. She did tell us that stud dog was the same for both litters but mum for one we liked was a rescue with no paperwork. She didn’t elaborate, (we were naive) and didn’t ask enough questions.
Cue a lovely dog but diagnosed with lens luxation at four, medication, first eye removed at eight, second one at twelve. We called him the million pound dog...super chap, finally put to sleep at 14 years because deafness and dementia took its toll on his quality of life.
DH felt a cross breed was right for us at this point, I went along. But we had an acquaintance with a lovely springer cross Labrador who had a friend with a stud miniature poodle. They are obviously what you would term a BYB. I think they wanted their grandchildren to experience the whole puppy experience. Very genuine people, worked with their vet throughout, took loads of advice from the stud dog owner and had potential owners known to them lined up for the pups. In the end their were nine pups and the price for them was calculated on all the expense divided by nine. Our girl looks like a cockapoo but isn’t , she is a mongrel for sure and cost a lot less than designer ones. We are very happy with her but I would hate to think that others see her and think puppy farm.
However, raising awareness is absolutely the right thing to do mumsnet but kennel club should play their role too.

Again though, what are the Kennel Club meant to do about crossbreeds?

This is their stance, which seems quite clear and gives links to campaigns with further info: www.thekennelclub.org.uk/our-resources/kennel-club-campaigns/puppy-farming/

Can't imagine many people looking to buy a crossbreed puppy go looking at the KC site, though?

As before, I absolutely don't think the KC are flawless. Their Assured Breeder Scheme is no mark of quality and is also currently quite a useful tool for puppy farmers, unfortunately, although they are working on it ... not fast enough!

There are also huge problems in breeds such as French Bulldogs, Pugs, Bulldogs and others that are no doubt not springing to mind where people are registering ridiculous colours that cannot possibly exist without crossbreeding, and the public are paying £000s for them - the KC are still registering them, sometimes as 'Colour Not Recognised', sometimes under incorrect colours despite evidence - and things like this they definitely need to address.

But control over breeding of crossbreeds - nope, can't see how they can have any influence there.

@Wolfiefan - I hope your girl is OK, it's so horrible not being able to help them and just wanting them to know you're there and trying to make it right - to you both.

@Wolfiefan, hope your lovely girl is soon on the mend

Recently saw a litter of "unique blue wolfhounds". Rubbish. Great Dane and wolfhound cross.
Nothing wrong in and of itself in cross breeds. But health checks of parents? Almost never done.
I'm sitting here looking at my girl and worrying myself stupid!

Through work I met some ex breeding bitches that were the 'lucky' ones as they had been rescued from puppy farms. Utterly damaged, their stories were really heart-breaking and they'll never fully get over the trauma of being over-bred and kept in such harsh conditions.

Lots of people I know have got pups recently - without exception various versions of poos, cocker, cava etc - and all I can see is the broken little faces of the mums. Makes me so angry.

Yep Luna.
I would rather not have a dog than buy one from a puppy farmer. The pup may well end up being lovely and healthy. But it's not just about that one pup. It's about encouraging people to breed dogs in this miserable way and churning out pups with no concern for health or temperament or finding the right homes or anything but money.

Well I have to say that it's threads like these that helped me to understand more about puppy farming. We'd have very likely ended up with a farmed puppy as for various reasons needed a poodle. Happy to say that after finding out more about it all we've ended up with a gorgeous older Cyprus poodle rescue.

I also realise I don't really understand about puppy farming. I think I thought it was illegal - done in secret in places in Wales and Ireland, but now I've read this and googled a bit, it isn't, is it?

I've got an 9 week old puppy, definitely not puppy farmed, the breeder is someone a member of our family knows. Puppy is a total joy, so bright and smart, learning so fast. Dogs want to be with people, they are so loving and trusting, I cannot imagine how much puppies and the breeding mums must suffer when they are raised in that kind of environment. It makes me cry.

Thinking about this today has reminded me, I once was out walking ddog1 and I walked past a place off a country lane near where I live where a particular breed of dog is bred. They are quite big, sleek dogs. There were probably 20 adult dogs in small metal pens, all barking and pacing. It was horrible. So that would be a puppy farm, right?. There's no good explanation for something like that, is there? It's not a secret and so I'm pretty sure what is being done there is legal. But it seems completely immoral. Why is nothing done about it?

I found the place online - on champdogs. They are KC assured breeders etc - breed two different breeds, have a couple of litters a year. Have 20 dogs in total. They health test, they offer permanent rehoming to any of their dogs etc - if website to be believed. So I don't think it is a "puppy farm" like the original advert.

And yet, what kind of life do their dogs have, living like that? I'm looking at my boy stretched out on the sofa beside me, and it's raining outside, and all those dogs aren't curled up on a sofa with someone who loves them, are they.

KC reg means bugger all.
20 dogs is a business.
I doubt it's just the two litters.
Health testing. Doubt they run the full gauntlet of recommended tests or choose potential parents with the proper care.