Sorry, but ...

[Whitney168]

The breeder recommendation on the other thread just gives so much opportunity for more ways to teach people how to spot puppy farmers! I don't want either the OP or the person who gave the recommendation to think I am personally attacking them, that is absolutely not my motivation.

We just need people to start recognising the cobblers these people tell prospective purchasers and some of the more accurate reasons behind it. So, from that particular breeder's website, some gems that would ring alarm bells for me.

We offer to keep all our puppies up until 12 weeks of age. We charge £10 per night to keep a puppy after 8 weeks of age

Good grief, what a nice little racket they have going here, dressed up as selflessness and helpfulness. Any decent breeder will have thoroughly vetted their buyers, and once they have agreed to let a puppy go they would certainly not charge to keep it if there were some extentuating circumstances that meant it needed to stay a little longer - let alone at £10 a day!

WE ARE DRIVING PAST CAN WE STOP OFF AND HAVE A LOOK ROUND?
I’m afraid we will say no if you contact us asking this question.
Your appointment slot will be up to 45 minutes long and must not be exceeded.
Should you be early you must not pull up and wait on our premesis and must find somewhere local to stay e.g. a cafe.

Very controlled contact and appointments for this breeder, and restricting people seeing how many buyers are coming and going. A good breeder will not limit your time to ask questions and make sure you have all the info you need about them (and vice versa).

copies of dads KC reg and DNA PRA certificate (we do not give copies of mums paperwork out as we are not selling to breeding homes)
And also presumably because the poor mums are not of any discernible breed, not health tested despite their fine words - plus they don't want anyone to be able to track the number of bitches and how many litters they are having.

Deposits will be taken on a first come first serve basis

In fact, their whole T&Cs demonstrates that these are just business transactions.

Gah, I could go on ... and on ... and on. Suffice it to say that there is nothing wholesome and fluffy about this breeder, or any other like it, despite the lovely website. Their bitches are a factory line, kept in a dark barn in cages.

I say it regularly and will say it again - if you don't take steps to avoid this, you are supporting it!

[Wolfiefan]

Bloody hell that is sickening. Poor dogs. Good on you for not funding this business.

[Nannyplumbrocks]

We saw our first pup a few weeks ago and Im glad I realised it was a puppy farm before taking the dog. I walked away. It was very obvious to me from the start. House out in the country, met lady there. She brought us to an outdoor shed where pup was alone. Pup was so timid he barely looked up when we walked in. He looked so sad. Head down. No interaction. I asked to see parents and was brought to an outdoor pen where 2 dogs were pacing and barking at us. Im not surprised. Owner never asked us a single question, was quite presumptuous that we were taking pup there and then. I told her we were going to have a chat and come back. We didn't. Poor pup, he was beautiful. Later through some googling found they were licensed for 50 breeding bitches ( Ireland) sickening

[StandardPoodle]

So many wise words on how to recognise a possible puppy farm dog.
Our breeder wanted full details of our family and breed experience. We met our boy with his mum, siblings, grandmother, great-grandmother and great-great grandmother - all immaculately groomed and the younger ones in full show trim. All the family's show results are on the internet.
He receives a birthday card each year from his breeder - we are still in contact too and get updates and videos of his family, and we send videos and updates too.

[LunaFortuna]

Up until five years ago I had no idea that puppy farms existed. When I found out I just thought, well why don't they close them down, they're illegal. I couldn't believe it when I found out they were legal and licensed. I can't think of one good reason for puppy farms, they are purely for profit. I've campaigned, tried to help raise awareness and written to my (useless) MP on more than one occasion but it feels like it's endemic.

And I get it, the puppies are super cute. I see it on FB all the time "soooo cute". But the invisible mums are the opposite of cute, they are dirty, matted, poorly and sad.

Anyway, like I said, 5 years ago I was clueless and who knows I might have unknowingly done the same thing. What can we do except keep talking about it, keep letting people know.

Thanks for the thread Whitney.

[Bubble2bubble]

And yes, if a breeder has 20 + dogs you can rest assured they are not lying in front of the fire as beloved family pets, no matter how many cute photos of dogs with bows in their hair you might see on the breeder's website.

[Bubble2bubble]

It's a really common misconception that puppy farm is so vile it has to be illegal. It's not. In fact in some places such as the border counties in Northern Ireland it has been actively encouraged as part of a government backed rural diversification programme.

[Wolfiefan]

KC reg means bugger all.
20 dogs is a business.
I doubt it's just the two litters.
Health testing. Doubt they run the full gauntlet of recommended tests or choose potential parents with the proper care.

[Snooglepup]

I found the place online - on champdogs. They are KC assured breeders etc - breed two different breeds, have a couple of litters a year. Have 20 dogs in total. They health test, they offer permanent rehoming to any of their dogs etc - if website to be believed. So I don't think it is a "puppy farm" like the original advert.

And yet, what kind of life do their dogs have, living like that? I'm looking at my boy stretched out on the sofa beside me, and it's raining outside, and all those dogs aren't curled up on a sofa with someone who loves them, are they.

[Snooglepup]

I also realise I don't really understand about puppy farming. I think I thought it was illegal - done in secret in places in Wales and Ireland, but now I've read this and googled a bit, it isn't, is it?

I've got an 9 week old puppy, definitely not puppy farmed, the breeder is someone a member of our family knows. Puppy is a total joy, so bright and smart, learning so fast. Dogs want to be with people, they are so loving and trusting, I cannot imagine how much puppies and the breeding mums must suffer when they are raised in that kind of environment. It makes me cry.

Thinking about this today has reminded me, I once was out walking ddog1 and I walked past a place off a country lane near where I live where a particular breed of dog is bred. They are quite big, sleek dogs. There were probably 20 adult dogs in small metal pens, all barking and pacing. It was horrible. So that would be a puppy farm, right?. There's no good explanation for something like that, is there? It's not a secret and so I'm pretty sure what is being done there is legal. But it seems completely immoral. Why is nothing done about it?

[Plentyoffishnets]

Well I have to say that it's threads like these that helped me to understand more about puppy farming. We'd have very likely ended up with a farmed puppy as for various reasons needed a poodle. Happy to say that after finding out more about it all we've ended up with a gorgeous older Cyprus poodle rescue.

[Wolfiefan]

Yep Luna.
I would rather not have a dog than buy one from a puppy farmer. The pup may well end up being lovely and healthy. But it's not just about that one pup. It's about encouraging people to breed dogs in this miserable way and churning out pups with no concern for health or temperament or finding the right homes or anything but money.

[LunaFortuna]

Through work I met some ex breeding bitches that were the 'lucky' ones as they had been rescued from puppy farms. Utterly damaged, their stories were really heart-breaking and they'll never fully get over the trauma of being over-bred and kept in such harsh conditions.

Lots of people I know have got pups recently - without exception various versions of poos, cocker, cava etc - and all I can see is the broken little faces of the mums. Makes me so angry.

[Wolfiefan]

Recently saw a litter of "unique blue wolfhounds". Rubbish. Great Dane and wolfhound cross.
Nothing wrong in and of itself in cross breeds. But health checks of parents? Almost never done.
I'm sitting here looking at my girl and worrying myself stupid!

[Whitney168]

@Wolfiefan, hope your lovely girl is soon on the mend

[RebeccaWithTheGoodHair]

@Wolfiefan - I hope your girl is OK, it's so horrible not being able to help them and just wanting them to know you're there and trying to make it right - to you both.

[Whitney168]

Again though, what are the Kennel Club meant to do about crossbreeds?

This is their stance, which seems quite clear and gives links to campaigns with further info: www.thekennelclub.org.uk/our-resources/kennel-club-campaigns/puppy-farming/

Can't imagine many people looking to buy a crossbreed puppy go looking at the KC site, though?

As before, I absolutely don't think the KC are flawless. Their Assured Breeder Scheme is no mark of quality and is also currently quite a useful tool for puppy farmers, unfortunately, although they are working on it ... not fast enough!

There are also huge problems in breeds such as French Bulldogs, Pugs, Bulldogs and others that are no doubt not springing to mind where people are registering ridiculous colours that cannot possibly exist without crossbreeding, and the public are paying £000s for them - the KC are still registering them, sometimes as 'Colour Not Recognised', sometimes under incorrect colours despite evidence - and things like this they definitely need to address.

But control over breeding of crossbreeds - nope, can't see how they can have any influence there.

[Cocobananas]

Have been debating with myself this afternoon re joining in...but will offer my experiences.
Twenty five years ago when wanting to find a Labrador puppy, DH and I went to Crufts, noted the name of a lady judge and I (can’t believe my cheek) rang her and asked if she could help us locate a puppy. Back in the day before googling etc. I think she could have given me short shrift but put me on to a breeder friend of hers who had one black lab puppy available for a family rather than show home. We went, fell in love and brought her home. Breeder said that she wouldn’t make show grade because she would be too short for breed standard. We didn’t make much of this but true enough when she was full grown she was indeed 1 inch shorter than show standards. She lived to 16 and a half, much loved member of the family.
When black lab was eight, we decided to have another smaller dog. Followed the kennel club route and found a breeder of Lancashire Heelers. Arrived and found two litters. The dog we had come to see was rather weedy looking and we soon looked at the chunky looking chap in the other litter. Breeder happy to sell us this one rather than the one we had reserved. She did tell us that stud dog was the same for both litters but mum for one we liked was a rescue with no paperwork. She didn’t elaborate, (we were naive) and didn’t ask enough questions.
Cue a lovely dog but diagnosed with lens luxation at four, medication, first eye removed at eight, second one at twelve. We called him the million pound dog...super chap, finally put to sleep at 14 years because deafness and dementia took its toll on his quality of life.
DH felt a cross breed was right for us at this point, I went along. But we had an acquaintance with a lovely springer cross Labrador who had a friend with a stud miniature poodle. They are obviously what you would term a BYB. I think they wanted their grandchildren to experience the whole puppy experience. Very genuine people, worked with their vet throughout, took loads of advice from the stud dog owner and had potential owners known to them lined up for the pups. In the end their were nine pups and the price for them was calculated on all the expense divided by nine. Our girl looks like a cockapoo but isn’t , she is a mongrel for sure and cost a lot less than designer ones. We are very happy with her but I would hate to think that others see her and think puppy farm.
However, raising awareness is absolutely the right thing to do mumsnet but kennel club should play their role too.

[Ylvamoon]

Some people just want a puppy and don't care! I have had a few litters and experienced some shocking behaviour from potential owners.
Like the one who quite happily would have sent a cheque (full price) through the post without seeing the puppy or mum. Or the one who got very vocal because I suggested she should only but one puppy and get 2nd in 12-18 months, when 1st is settled.
Or the parents who want to buy a pet dog for their toddler - because he likes animals and dog will get used to the child from early on! (They never had a dog or knew anything about dogs!)
Sadly it's people like the above who will keep puppy farms and rescue centres) in business.
I think you can but a good puppy from a breeder without spending years on a waiting list. I know some who will only advertise / make litters public once puppies are around 4-6 weeks old. In the end, it's about gut feeling and what you are comfortable with.

[Wolfiefan]

Not sure @Hoppinggreen
Waiting on bloods. Totally off food. Best guess at moment is phantom pregnancy. Hoping it's not an infection of some kind. Anxious first time pup mum here.

[Hoppinggreen]

wolfie hope your girl is ok
My 2nd favourite breed ( after mine of course)

[Hoppinggreen]

Thanks rebecca
He's been here 18 months now and after a lot of work, tonnes of love and input from professionals he's a lovely boy ( most of the time)

[Wolfiefan]

Yep. Bastards. Utter bastards.
(NOT YOU HOPPING!!!!!)
My girl is a bit under the weather. Had bloods done today and I've been really worried. Both breeders (mum co owned) have been emailing back and forth all day to offer advice and support.
I once read that you should consider a breeder as a kind of in law! They will be a part of your pup's and family life in some way forever!

[RebeccaWithTheGoodHair]

Thanks Hopping - I hope he has a lovely life with you, sure he will, and I'm really sorry for you finding out that. Bastards, preying off people who want to do the right thing.

[Hoppinggreen]

Oh, and he's NOT a doodle of any kind!!

[Hoppinggreen]

rebecca when we Were due to collect our pup I phoned and the lady said she wouldn't be there as she was going away for a few days so we rearranged
Then when we turned up the pup was the only dog there, no mum or sibs. The people who lived there were also different except for the lady handing over the dog. In the course of the conversation it came out that she didn't actually live there. She also took a while to find the correct papers as the KC " had sent too many" . His pedigree name relates to Christmas but he was born at the beginning of November. Lady dropped into the conversation that the pup " travelled very well in he car". When we got home and took him to the vet she said he wasn't in great condition and that his vaccination certificate didn't make sense. We bought him from a house in Yorkshire but he was registered at a farm in Wales
All small things but added up its bloody obvious - vet agrees and says it's not uncommon for the puppy farmers to do it that way