Would you have this dog pts?

[Fosterdog123]

I am currently fostering a beautiful 2 year old border collie. She has the sweetest character I've ever known in a dog and I've had dogs all my life, including other BCs. However, she has a lot of issues. Some typical BC quirks, which is fine but her main issues are extreme aggression towards people and dogs. I am part of the brigade of people who walk at silly-o-clock in the morning and night but we still run into the odd person, cyclist etc where we are (busy place, always someone going to/from work etc). She goes into a white foam frenzy. I have her on 3 leads just incase one snaps, including a halti, as she is as strong as an ox. I do all the advised things with her - clicker training, sniff work etc. We have tried to find another home for her and can't (no dogs or animals of any other kind, no children, no normal dog walking etc). None of the breed-specialist rescues will take her. Can't go in kennels. Can't go in doggy day care. Goes into a frenzy when off lead in a secure field (just mindlessly runs, gets hysterical and can't calm down, plus she is distressed in the car on the journey). She is constantly vigilant in the house, despite my best efforts with calm time etc. Her life before me was shit (people should have been tortured prosecuted) and so, versus that, she lives like royalty but her quality of life is still hugely compromised and she is living a half life. So my question is, do you think she is a pts case?

She needs to work, imo. Have you tried agility? I've known lots of young collies like this come good with a good, experienced behaviouralist. She's still very young, and as a vet id be loathe to pts at this stage. I don't think she is unsalvageable. Hard work, but doable.

I'm assuming The doesnt have veterinary issues that could be causing this aggression?

My horses for example. I wouldn't pass a dangerous horse on knowing it would be past from pillar to post.

If there is a life of uncertainty and you've explored every other avenue then pts is the kindest and sensible option

I would try a behaviourist first. If no improvement then yes I would put to sleep.

Dog not doesn't

Have you tried Wiccaweys? They're utterly awesome and will help over the phone if they can't take her, they always have a waiting list of dogs to come in as per usual in rescue

I am all for rescuing and giving dogs a second chance, but in cases like this where all avenues have been tried sometimes it is kinder for the dog to be PTS. It's a huge risk rehoming such an aggressive/ reactive dog, accidents happen and new owners aren't always as vigilant as they should be, and it's risking the safety of others and the dog. It's also the stress to the dog of living like that heightened, hyper alert state and not being able to really 'be a dog'. You've obviously put a lot of work in and tried what you can, I applaud you for that, but if I was in your situation (from the info you've given) I would probably PTS.
It's obviously not a decision to be taken lightly, and you'll always get some people who say never put a healthy dog down- but you've got to think about their mental health and wellbeing as well as the physical.

That sounds so sad. I would try and find a behaviourist who specialised in collies and give it a really good shot, but if that didn't work I would PTS. Mental health is as important as physical health, imo, and that sounds like a really hard life for her. Well done for giving her a loving home, it sounds hard on all of you.

What starry says.

If some very concentrated work with a good behaviorist and simultaneous anti-anxiety medication doesn't create considerable improvement, then yes, PTS.

Physically healthy - no issues now. Came to me in a mess but in rude good health now.

Been working with a behaviourist.

Wiccaways won't take her.

Can't do agility or flyball cos she attacks other dogs and people, although people to a lesser extent but still unpredictable.

I don't envy you having to make such a choice. I rescued a 6year old bc with the temperament of patrick batement. Could never go off lead had to be muzzled. Fast forward 12months I'm pregnant and know full well it's a recipe for disaster, I found a family that have had rescue Collies, they really knew their stuff. He came back after a month for biting one of them very badly, he couldn't cope with another rehome. I made the decision it was the kindest thing, to live in a constant state of fear is no life for a dog. He'd been dealt a bad hand in life. One of the hardest things I had to do as previously I felt there was not an issues that couldn't be overcome with training. Bcs aren't for the faint hearted and their definitely not pets, even the sane ones are nutty, finding someone to take them on is a task in itself. I had every hope it would work out but it wasn't meant to be. I can console myself that he had a good later life with myself and rescue family who did all we could in comparison to the life he had before. Whatever you do op you have to live with it nobody else, I couldn't risk my little one and have to constantly remind myself why I made the choice I did.

www.petlossmessageboard.com/post/when-is-it-time-to-euthanize-an-aggressive-dog-6373343

Message board for people who have been in a similar situation

You've done your best.
I think by posing the question, you kind of know the answer.
Some are too damaged. Tragic though that is, if that's the situation, give this dog a graceful exit.
Oh, and get sedative tablets first, so the exit's not too scary.
I'm in tears, so can only imagine how you must feel.
Bravo for trying

I am inconsolable and my heart is broken. She is truly the kindest soul you could ever imagine. Just gentle and loyal. And also happily playing with her Kong right now. She needs to live in s bubble but bubbles don't exist.

Oh Fosterdog my heart goes out to you.
It's so good she has experienced love and appreciation from you.
But she is so troubled, and you're right, can't live in a bubble. If you could take her to a desert island.. But you can't. She's here. And can't be reconciled to here. So , brave, be kind to her.If there's no peace for her in this world, because of her mixed up emotions, its kind to release her, just as it would be if it was a physical pain that you couldn't make better.

Sad. Make sure you get heavy sedation from your vet so that the PTS procedure isn't too stressful and dangerous for all.

FD this is a subject so close to home for me as a sadly lost my rescue dog at a very young age partly due to uncontrollable nervous aggression. She had some health issues but the aggression was the tip of the iceberg. She was so hysterical around strangers and dogs she would go into a frenzy and try to bite anything that got close enough. She reacted to things from miles away barking and lunging to get to whatever was scary.

We tried everything. Behaviourists, vets, medication you name it. I joined Facebook groups, clubs, took her to agility and took training religiously every week for years but she never improved. If anything she got worse.

It affected my life so badly and it got to the point I hated walking her as much as she hated being walked. I tried keeping her as a house dog but she was a large active dog and couldn't stay inside forever. She was so well behaved at home which was the hardest part as she was happy with me. If she could have lived a life with just us two together in our own world she would have loved it

I was scared she would hurt someone and that she had no quality of life so sadly I did have her put to sleep. I cuddled her and told her how much I adored her and she went peacefully.

Since then my life has been emptier but stress free. Walks are normal again and I have had other normal dogs since who I appreciate for how well behaved they are. I think in her case she was genetically wired wrong or something.

I don't regret my decision. It broke my heart but I can see now that life is no life for a dog. I feel for you as I know how much it hurts

Pony lady , she is also worse than ever. Much worse than when I first got her. She'd been caged her whole life (and I mean a tiny crate, day and night) and the outside world has blown her brains. She loves the idea of a walk and gets excited when I get her lead but sadly that's where the enjoyment ends.

She is booked to see the vet tomorrow to go on anxiety medication, to see if that helps but I think it's simply delaying the inevitable.

Mine was the same. She would bark and whine as soon as she saw the lead,tail wagging. She loved walking as long as she saw no people or dogs but once she did something in her flipped and she would be terribly stressed the rest of the walk.
She was strange, one moment she was happy and the next she would panic and just loose it and I was scared one day she would end up biting somebody as I couldn't snap her out of it no matter what I did.

Realistically you can't shield them from the whole world as much as I wished I could.

I would have given anything to make my dog happy but when I look back I don't think anything I could have done would have taken the stress from her life

I don't think there is a right or wrong in this situation but please don't feel that putting her to sleep is the wrong decision. At the end of the day they don't know anything other than being loved by you in that moment and then nothing.

Yes, I had my old collie pts about 5 years ago. Was quick and stressfree but my god, I turned myself inside out with tears for him and was fit for nothing for a long time. This will be worse. She's an angel, so young, treated so cruelly, my heart is broken for her.

I have a patient, a JRT x, now 6mo, who was adopted from a rescue centre at about 8 wo by an exceptionally good and experienced owner. No known trauma. At her first vet visit she was a little timid but normal. Second one she was highly fear aggressive and I examined her in a very low key way outside the practice. The owner was becoming very concerned. Despite very sympathetic handling and close work with an excellent behaviorist from the age of 10wo, she has deteriorated rapidly until she is now frequently in a similar frenzied state to Pony and Foster's dogs. Sadder still, the owner's other (sweet, small) dog is petrified of her and now spends most of her time hiding in a wardrobe, while her cats have moved to the garden. She has just started an 8 wk trial of Clomicalm and even more intense therapy, at the end of which we will have to review the situation.

Thanks villain. Will discuss options tomorrow but potentially looking at Prozac.

I was in your position 2.5 years ago.
I have a 3 yr old reactive border collie. She was abandoned at a rescue with 7 pups. I have had collies all my life and I thought I knew what I was doing! I was wrong!
We have been working with a behaviourist now for 18+ months. She is on (prescribed) Nutracalm - which I think is helping. We are working on changing her emotional responses ( not her behaviour). The first step was to completely stop exposing her to reactive situations. This meant not walking her (that felt very wrong) stopping any exciting activity in the garden and keeping the house calm. I was told that I needed to get her in the position where she was relaxed and calm at home and then to very slowly start introducing her (in a controlled manor) to people. So I have spent more than 6+months "chilling" in the garden with her. I have done a tiny bit of obedience with her....... but have basically spent time "hanging out" with her.
I have recently had an assessment and she has definitely improved. Where before she would run towards any situation (barking furiously) - no matter how near or far......... she now seems to be able to cope with a person 25m away.

I have been taught how to introduce her to someone coming into the house....and I have just started meeting up with a friend (and her very relaxed dog) to walk together (well we actually walk about 10m apart).
It is extremely slow going, but I am starting to see a (minute) improvement. She no longer objects to me stirring my tea, she does (very occasionally) lie down and relax. She was,very definitely, my dog (watched where I was all the time) but now is closer to my husband and daughters.
I am hopeful.
It has helped that I am at home all day and can control what she does all day. I have not been on holiday since we got her. I still separate her from my other dogs if I do have to leave her at home alone.
I think the best advice they gave me was that I must not react to her behaviour (i.e. try to correct it or tell her off)...because that just makes her stress levels rise. Most simply, I need to keep her away from reactive situations.....this will reduce the level in her "tank of emotions"
I was vet-referred to my behaviourist. It has been very expensive (I go for monthly visits) but I have learnt a lot - especially how to "read"my dog.

My vet has been brilliant - he will treat her in the car-park so I don't have to enter the building. He is very calm with her... and is interested in what I am doing.

Good luck.

Thanks for sharing that Sam, most of it resonates. I too thought I knew what I was doing! Ha, how wrong I was! I simply cannot bear not to walk her, so I steal out in quiet moments and I occasionally take her out on my bike, fully aware that I may not come back with my front teeth 😁 Overall, she is a pretty good dog in the house and I can have people visit no problem. The problems start outside and no way could she live with another dog. We've tried in controlled environments and she attacks.

Hiya, it may be worth getting in touch with this guy www.dogandduckshow.co.uk
He specialises in taking on rescue collies that are destined to be pts and gives them an opportunity to work. We saw him at a show last summer and really liked the way he was with his dogs.