Spaniel puppy with docked tail?

[Stitchintimesaves9]

Advice please! We (DH, DS (16), DD (14)) have been wanting a family dog for a while, done lots of research and one the breeds we thought would be best for us is a Cocker Spaniel. We've just found out about a litter of Cockers very close to where we live. The breeder owns a boarding kennels/dog grooming business and is used and very highly rated by friends of mine. My friends also know the Mum, and say she has a lovely temperament etc

Visited the pups a few days ago, all fine. They're currently 2 weeks old. Mum was lovely, pups being raised in a family home - definitely not a puppy farm. But the pups' tails had been docked! They are from a working strain, so maybe this is routine? Just wondered what peoples' thoughts were?

Aren't they always?

This might help. If they dock it has to be in the first few days so if bred with intent to work then that's why.

www.thekennelclub.org.uk/our-resources/media-centre/issue-statements/tail-docking/

My spaniel is from working stock (she''s 13 now so things may have changed) The breeder trained them for mine detection. If I remember correctly they are docked prior to the breeder deciding which he would keep for training and which would be would let go as family pets so they are all docked.

You can legally doc the tails of certain working breeds when they are a few days old. Make sure you get the vets paperwork though when you buy them to prove they were legally docked.

I wanted a cocker (working strain) with his full tail and was fortunate to find a breeder that didn't dock them and I am so glad as he really shows a lot of expression with his and as I have no intention of working him it didn't need to be docked.

Thanks all! i am a bit worried about him or her not being able to show expression! I'm not sure how much tail is left.

Thanks, BiteyShark - we'll be sure to get the paperwork if we do get one

I thought it was illegal now? Maybe not in working dogs. But I wouldn't trust anyone willing to do that.

On a separate note can you give the extra exercise a working dog will need?

We've thought about the exercise and we're confident we can do the long walks every day. We borrowed a West Highland Terrier for a while to get a feel for being dog owners, and the poor chap started to rebel after a while about being taken for another walk.

It's only legal for certain breeds as working dogs. I hate it.

I love my cockers tail as he wags it so differently for hunting, picking up a scent, excited etc but I do understand why it's done for working dogs because they are expected to run through god knows what and if they get it ripped it can be very bad. A farmer explained that you can have low and high docks so the length can vary.

As for exercise actually they don't need excessive amounts but what they do need is mental stimulation as well as they are used to working/thinking.

My patterdale x is docked but he has about 5" of tail which is ample to wag , which he does a lot . I'd check how much tail the dog will have , stumps are not very nice .

Make sure you see all the relevant paperwork for the parents' health tests as well.

As a minimum both parents should have had their hips scored as well as having a current BVA eye test (these are repeated annually) and a current BVA gonioscopy (repeated every three years). They should also have been DNA tested (with at least one of them testing clear) for prcd-PRA and Familial Nephropathy.

Ideally they should also have been DNA tested for Acral Mutilation Syndrome, Adult Onset Neuropathy, Exercise Induced Collapse and Macrothrombocytopenia.

Chek the inbreeding coefficient of the litter as well. Presuming the parents are KC registered you can do that by entering their names here. It should be as close to 0% as possible, preferably

I used to dislike the idea of docking: I thought it was pointless and unnecessary.

But I know six pet dogs from traditionally docked breeds who were not docked. Of those, one has had a tail amputation, one was seeing the vet today to see if her infected tail would require amputation, another has a permanently sore and scabbed tail tip with no fur, another has split her tail several times... And tail amputation is a horrible op, much worse for the dog than even a spay, very painful even with analgesia. It can take up to a month to heal if the skin flap doesn't take, and the skin flap often doesn't take because blood supply to the tail is poor (not that you'd know it from the crime-scene splashes that a split tail leaves up the walls).

OP, I don't know about cockers, but working springers are usually docked by half, which leaves plenty of tail for expression and communication.

Thanks again for the really helpful posts! Will definitely ask all the health related questions too.

It is ONLY legal to dock working breeds tails if they are intended to be used for working and the breeder has shown evidence of this. Otherwise the breeder is illegally amputating a functional limb, with the potential to cause long-term chronic pain.

For docking to be legal it must be performed by a veterinary surgeon
who should "certify that he has seen evidence that a dog is likely to be used for a specified type of work and is a dog of a specified type"
www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/1120/regulation/3/made

Clearly your puppy is not intended for work and therefore this is a breach of the law and should be reported. The only way to protect puppies from unneccessary amputations (which can have long-term health and behaviour implications) is to report

www.bva-awf.org.uk/sites/bva-awf.org.uk/files/user/tail_docking_guidance.pdf

I have a working sprocker with a docked tail. It's more common than you think

tail amputation is a horrible op, much worse for the dog than even a spay, very painful even with analgesia.

Absolutely - so why do you believe the same amputation, performed on puppies with NO analgesia or anaesthesia is acceptable? Docking is exactly the same process as surgical amputation but without the protection of anaesthesia and analgesia - and therefore more likely to result in chronic pain due to neuroma formation.

The evidence shows that 320 dogs need to be docked to prevent one tail injury (not amputation) so the risks to the population are very low. Its basically a decision to cause significant pain to 320 puppies to prevent the treatment (with analgesia) of one adult with an injury. It's ludicrous.

I thought the breeder only had to prove that a certain proportion of the litter were going to work to be able to dock the whole litter .

I thought the breeder only had to prove that a certain proportion of the litter were going to work to be able to dock the whole litter

Not according to the legislation - it clearly states 'a dog'

Absolutely - so why do you believe the same amputation, performed on puppies with NO analgesia or anaesthesia is acceptable?
It's not often that I disagree with you, Veterinari, but I do over this. The science indicates that puppies vocalise for an average of less than two and a half minutes after docking; obviously, it would be preferable if they were given analgesia. But I've seen an adult dog, who had been given painkillers, lying on the floor whimpering and whining for over an hour when returned home from the vets following amputation.

The Lederer study which was funded by the Scottish gov't (iirc) showed that over half of working spaniels sustained a tail injury each season, of which a third or so were taken to the vet - about 20% of dogs each season. The study by Diesel etc al indicated that about 30% of dogs with tail injuries taken to the vet end up with an amputation; other studies say 20%. Whichever way you look at it, that's a lot of dogs enduring amputation as adults, never mind the pain of repeated or chronic injuries.

Do you have a source for your '320 dogs' because I would genuinely like to read it. I am not being snarky: I have crawled all over the Lederer study and I am always willing to learn more.

Not according to the legislation - it clearly states 'a dog'

[http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2007/9780110757780/schedule/2 This site]] - UK govt, looks legit - gives the form of the certificate which says:
'...the dog whose tail is to be docked ('the dog') by me on [insert date] is likely to be used for work in connection with an activity specified in paragraph 5 below...''

*clicky link fail
Try again

"But I've seen an adult dog, who had been given painkillers, lying on the floor whimpering and whining for over an hour when returned home from the vets following amputation."

I've seen my dog do that with no procedure carried out after anaesthetic...

Anecdotally I've spoken to Rottweiler breeders who were for docking until it was banned and they realised that docking had been slowing all their litters' growth and development.

"Whichever way you look at it, that's a lot of dogs enduring amputation as adults"

Is it? That's 4-6% of just working dogs which I suspect do not make up a huge percentage of those breeds to start with.

Is it? That's 4-6% of just working dogs which I suspect do not make up a huge percentage of those breeds to start with.
4-6% each year... that soon adds up. And I'd love to know the stats for pet HPRs and spaniels, because, anecdotally, a high proportion of them have problems with their tails, too.

I've seen my dog do that with no procedure carried out after anaesthetic...
Dog didn't react that way to a GA for a cut pad...

I don't like docking, don't get me wrong. It's just that from what I can see, and the stats I have been able to look at, it's the lesser of two evils for spaniels and HPRs - and not needed for terriers, even though they used to be docked.

I have a working cocker who's tail was docked by a third so still plenty of lovely tail left to wag. I was the same as you OP before getting him as felt a bit uneasy but was very reassured by the breeder (who worked the mother) who explained about the injuries working dogs can get to their tails. Just because a working cocker isn't working doesn't mean they won't still run (at top speed!) Into the bushes,shrubs, nettles....! Now I've seen him in action I'm glad he's got a bit less tail. (Still have to pull all sorts of sticks off his ears but that's another story!)

My terrier was a Battersea pup found straying in Eltham , hes most likely illegally docked , fortunately they did a good job .