Urgent help needed please - dog bit toddler.

[WheresMaHairyToe]

Rescued my dog 7 months ago, he was a stray and is between 3 and 5 years old. Lab/ lurcher type mongrel.
He has been wonderful - quick response to training in the home, not quite 100% on toileting but getting there, fantastic with my kids (all over 8.)
Today, we were at the beach for a couple of hours with my 3 plus 5 assorted niece and nephews. Dog completely fine.
Got home, everyone settled, kids playing in garden. Dog took himself to bed in another room. 2 year old niece followed. Nobody witnessed what happened, but niece was bitten on the face. Small cut and bruising - bad enough!
My brother wants the dog out of my house. He isn't insisting on PTS. I rang 4 shelters, all said he was not able to be rehomed, so would be destroyed.
I've put him in kennels to give us all some breathing space, and am waiting on two shelters calling me back. He had never shown a single sign of aggression before this, but apparently did not growl before biting. My brother got to him seconds after the bite, and said he was also aggressive to him.
I got home about 10 mins after bite to a very unhappy dog.
I am heart broken, I don't know what to do. I am considering building him an outdoor run and muzzling him when he's near children, but that seems awful.
Sorry if this is incoherent. I'm in a bit of a state!
Please help with advice if you can! Or if you know of a no- kill shelter anywhere in NI.

Luckily for me, the laws on my side.

Nah, it's really not. I've explained why not, twice, and you refuse to listen.

Anyway, good luck to the OP, who has made the right decision.

Your brother needs to learn to supervise his children. Mine are 13, 12 and 9, we have a lab and lab x both with bombproof temperaments but they're still not allowed to be with the kids unsupervised. If for a few minutes we cannot supervise the kids either leave the room or we crate the dogs.

"Where? Where is your source that show's the OP's niece 'merely approached' the dog? Despite no one actually seeing the interaction"

Talk about spinning the whole situation. Youve a mass of posts on here,including your own, explaining, excusing, assuming what caused this incident. Ive shown you, that despite all those assumptions, they are indeed wrong. In an 'unwitnessed' incident like this, Ive provide a study which shows the most common human behaviour that has caused a bite of this type to a child. If you choose to disregard it, thats entirely your right to do, but I will still argue that ignoring it and excusing it is utterly utterly irresponsible.

Luckily you're not the OP then who clearly is much more sensible

Caroline are you reading a different thread or something?!

" 'Luckily for me, the laws on my side'

Nah, it's really not. I've explained why not, twice, and you refuse to listen. "

Yes it is. This is classed as a dangerous dog under the DDA. It has bitten. Thats all there is to it.

I refer you to my earlier post - you don't even know the dog HAS bitten. The facts are that a child sustained a small facial bruise whilst left unaccompanied in a room where there was a dog. The rest is conjecture.

Okay, you clearly don't understand the legislation. I'm not going to go backwards and forwards with you saying 'IS', 'ISN'T'.

Dogs that bite don't routinely get PTS Caroline. I know that for a fact.

Poor dog.

You shouldnt rehome. And no way would i pts for this.

Talk about spinning the whole situation. Youve a mass of posts on here,including your own, explaining, excusing, assuming what caused this incident. Ive shown you, that despite all those assumptions, they are indeed wrong. In an 'unwitnessed' incident like this, Ive provide a study which shows the most common human behaviour that has caused a bite of this type to a child. If you choose to disregard it, thats entirely your right to do, but I will still argue that ignoring it and excusing it is utterly utterly irresponsible.

I'm beginning to feel like I'm in the 'inconceivable' scene in the Princess Bride - I do not think that word means what you think it means

Have you actually read any of my posts? Yes you have linked to a study - but that study doesn't show what you say it shows, and I've used information taken from the actual study to show where your interpretations are wrong. Just because you provide a link, it doesn't make your opinion more valid unless the evidence in that link actually supports your opinions.

You seem to be struggling to understand that the link you provided does not support your opinions. You haven't even got the 'most common human behaviour' part right - as your clinging on to this simple 'approach' nonsense which is NOT what the study that YOU linked to actually investigates. I've even explained parts of the study that are behind the paywall so that you can see where your misunderstanding has arisen - but you're conveniently ignoring that

So far your advice has been:

1. Use the DDA to prosecute the DB
2. Euthanase all dogs that bite the face as they have sinister intent and plan to do maximum damage despite the study that YOU linked to showing that most facial bites are superficial or require no medical treatment
3. Randomly reference selected bits of legislation, science, and veterinary organisations with only tenuous relevance to your personal opinion in a very obvious attempt to make your unsupported opinion seem more valid.

The OP seems pretty sensible so far Caroline I'm pretty sure she's not going to be following up on any of that - thanks for the 'advice' though

"Dogs are not machines, that you send to a behaviourist who tweaks a screw and returns a guaranteed docile family friendly animal. No behaviourist will assure any owner a dog is 'cured' where a dog has previously reacted aggresively."
"Comparing horses, cats, parrots is ridiculous."

No, there is no behaviourist or training that can "Cure" a dog from being a dog, and its not ridiculous to say that all animals will act as the animals that they are. As humans with more understanding than a dog, it is our job to ensure that dogs are not treated in a way that will result in them acting in a way we dont want - this includes "do not let a 2 year old follow a dog into another room unsupervised". If you jump out at a horse, it will rear and startle, if you hassle a tired dog then it will eventually bite.

I highly doubt that a 2yr old follows a dog into another room with the intention of sitting quietly away from them and not giving them eye contact - they have followed them to "play" with them, and are not old enough to understand the warning signs that the dog is giving them to stop.

I see MANY problems in your post OP, but the dog isn't one of them.

The dog should have never have been left alone with a toddler. The adult responsible for allowing that to happen is to blame. The dog removed itself from a loud environment after a very loud day surrounded by children, and took itself off to bed - it's 'safe' space. The child followed and annoyed it. NOT the dogs fault!

Tell your brother to watch his kid in future and do one.

Caroline do you just hate dogs? I've never seen anyone spout so much rubbish before

This misinformed one is clearly a GF. Best to just ignore.

This dog has not acted aggressively!!! It has given a warning snap (or it may not even be the dog that has done anything). If this was an aggressive act the child would have far more than a small cut and a bruise - they would need stitches, maybe even facial reconstruction. If the minor injury does come from the dog, it is clear that the dog had already shown that he had had enough and wanted a break/some peace. The adult in the house failed to watch the two year old or see her effectively harassing a dog who had already made it clear he had had enough. What else was the dog supposed to do, he'd already made his feelings clear, his only option left, was to give a warning snap - which is the equivalent of a human screaming just fuck off and leave me alone!

These people saying put it down can you honestly say you've never in your life raised your voice at someone or physically moved them out of your space, when they won't listen and won't let you get away? Or does it only count if it's a dog and not a person?

"So far your advice has been:

1. Use the DDA to prosecute the DB
2. Euthanase all dogs that bite the face as they have sinister intent and plan to do maximum damage despite the study that YOU linked to showing that most facial bites are superficial or require no medical treatment
3. Randomly reference selected bits of legislation, science, and veterinary organisations with only tenuous relevance to your personal opinion in a very obvious attempt to make your unsupported opinion seem more valid."

1/ I have not advised prosecution. Ive highlighted the act that exists. I actually went straight to euthanasia. Do not pass go. Do not collect £200.

2/ Yes I have advised euthanasia, and think Ive been pretty clear why. The level of damage, from an initial incident, is irrelevant. Face bites are very specific. The attitude of, its only a scratch, is absolutely what I object to. There is a school of thought, that lesser damaging bites to the face and 'unusual' apparent one off aggresive behaviours, mean the dog is suitable for retraining/rehabilitation. This is itself unfounded in human bites. Very serious dog attack injuries have generally been preceded by 'minor' incidents like the OP describes.

This is the conclusion an independant US government study came to.

"Most children were bitten by dogs with no history of biting children. There is a high rate of behavioral abnormalities (aggression and anxiety) in this canine population. Common calming measures (neutering, training) were not routinely effective deterrents."

This is quite possibly why the OPs dog ended up in rescue in the first place. Putting your head in the sand, because it doesnt support some liberal animal rights rehabilitation of offenders agenda, (that has no data whatsoever to back it up), is a huge cause of why aggresive and dangerous dogs are now acceptable in society. My point is one of zero tolerance, a view I am absolutely entitled to hold.

3/ Theres nothing 'random' about my selection. The DDA is very clear as to what defines a dangerous dog. The OPs dog falls into that category. I have replied to sweeping generalisations that somewhere the child is responsible. Poor dog. The child, nor the OP, nor the 'brother' was originally responsible. I have taken on faith, that this is the very first occasion this has happened. But the fact remains, that it has now happened. Responsibility now steps in as to what action should be taken. That is what we are debating.

The OP needs to be aware of the bare bones of the situation. She has a rescue dog with unkown history. She now has an incident where the dog has bitten. She must absolutely understand that dogs dont bite "accidentally" and that millions of dogs do indeed live happily and aggresion free with children. Her dog isnt one of them.

How on earth is biting not aggressive?

If the DC had bitten or kicked the dog but "only" caused a bruise, that would have been aggression, how is it not aggressive because it was a dog biting a human?

The OP seems to be about right on the line she is taking - I don't think the dog necessarily needs to be got rid of but it absolutely is the OP 's fault - something in her house injured her guest, or she wasn't protecting her dog properly from the danger of ending up PTS if it had permanently disfigured the toddler, depending which way you look at it/ whether you prefer dogs or humans...

I'm probably missing something but where does it say the OP wasn't in the house btw?

Blue causing cuts and bruising to the face would be assault if a human did it to a 2 year old, not the same as raising your voice and moving them out of the way!

OP I'm glad to see you taking responsible and reasonable actions.

A crate in the house and an enclosed kennel/run area in the garden, to allow you to keep dog safe from very young or over boisterous visiting children (and thus children safe from the dog too), sounds like a very good plan.

Make sure your DC definitely understand basics of dog body language and when not to bother him. Luckily they are of an age where they should be able to learn and understand this quickly.

Then it's just caution around taking him out with you on full-on family days out. A good, qualified, behaviourist would be the best to assess and advise on the best ways to manage that for your individual dog obviously.

The single only person to blame here is yr brother...his child to watch knowing you had a dog..why should the dog be killed because he's a crap parent..in other people's houses you watch yr kids,you know where they are

Children do escape though, you need eyes at the back of your head.
you need to know they are safe if this happens.
Children are not safe with dogs that bite, they need to be pts if this happens.
So sorry, it sounds like you tried to give this dog a good home, but it can't be trusted.
For those who are saying it's bad to say pts, what would you say if it was your child, oh, that's ok

5 if you read my post you will see I said it is the dogs equivalent of those behaviours. If the dog had actually intended/wanted to cause harm (like when a human is when they hit) or was actually being properly aggressive it would have caused far worse. The warning snap (not an actual bite) was the dogs way of screaming fuck off and trying to move the person away.

Poor dog.

A day on a hot beach surrounded by children.

He goes home to get some peace and some sleep.

Unsupervised 2 year old follows him and gets bitten.

Her dad blames the dog? How about her supervises his own child?

Don't get the dog PTS. He had taken himself out of the way and was being annoyed by the child. You weren't even at home and in no way can you say whether the dog was at fault.

And your brother said the dog was aggressive to him but how was his behaviour towards the dog?

Your brother needs training.

I had a 10 yr old dog till recently,when ever we visited the nieces and nephews,or they came here I had to watch my dog like a hawk..he'd never bite,nor snap...but the parents never ever watched their kids around him.i found it bizarre they didn't , but left unsupervised they would of been pulling tails ,poking,all normal 2 yr old stuff that parents are supposed to teach their kids not to do.these parents seemed to think it was our problem,which it was as I take dog owning seriously,but I've also taught my kids to respect dogs,give them space.not poke not prod.we always used a play pen to keep our dog safe from random attacks from 2 yr olds...op ,give this dog another chance.god knows what the 2 yr old pulled or poked.