Can someone help me with puppy vaccinations please?

[LionSock]

I have been having chats with our breeder about vaccinations and I'm still a bit confused.

Puppy will come to us unvaccinated as the breeder doesn't like to vaccinate her dogs until they are 16 weeks. She said the puppy will only need one vaccine if I wait.

I need to look into this properly before deciding what to do but does anyone know anything about this? Or have any useful links for me to read?

I completely agree with the breeder and am so glad she seems educated about the whole vaccine business.

I'm a vet assistant and we see a lot of over vaccinated puppies and adult dogs.

Up until 16 weeks puppies still have their mothers immunity so any vaccinations before this point will be pointless. 16 weeks is the age in which their mothers maternal antibodies wear off. So when your vet tells you not to take your puppy out in public it's nonsense.

The majority of vaccs are just all for money making. A bit like boosters that they offer each year - you can't 'boost' immunity to any disease there is no such thing. They're either immune or they aren't. My practice doesn't even offer boosters.

Every dog I've ever owned hasn't had a single booster. We wait until they're 18 weeks, give them one round of puppy shots, and that's it! We socialise them from day 1 (around 8 weeks usually) to build up their own immunity.

There is a group on fb called 'Canine health dogs and vaccinations, what the vet doesn't tell you' please join!

Of course it's a personal choice, a decision only you can make. But please research it all. If I ever allowed my dog to have puppies I would also choose to not vaccinate the puppies and educate buyers on why being careful on jabs is so important!

You are going to be somewhat guided by the vets that you plan to take them too. Before you get your puppy I would go into a vets and ask them because there can be differences between vets.

Mine were lovely and gave me lots of advice before I got my puppy and also when they gave him a health checkup after I got him.

SparklingRaspberry I know you are somewhat against vaccinations but the majority of vets will advise to vaccinate early and OP there is usually a clause in any pet insurance about ensuring the pet is up to date with them so I would go with what your chosen vet recommends just in case you need to claim on insurance in the future as I know mine asked for a complete history from the vet when I had to claim.

The breeder wasn't telling me what to do, she was just explaining what she does. She takes her dogs for blood tests every year to check their amunity before getting boosters.

I planned on ringing the vets before hand anyway but just wanted to get a bit of background information re vaccinations beforehand. Before my guinea pigs died, I always seemed to be at the vets with them so know the vet well enough.

Also a good point re insurance. Thank you both for replying.

She takes her dogs for blood tests every year to check their amunity before getting boosters

These are called Titre tests. Those who don't vaccinate use these to show kennels etc that their dog is free from diseases. It basically shows how well their immune system is, and their antibodie count etc.

About the insurance - I've never had an issue with claiming. In our practice we have a lot of owners who no longer or have never vaccinated yet their insurance still pays out for health problems or emergencies/accidents. The only time the insurance company's won't pay out is if the animal was to catch a disease that could've been prevented by a vaccination. It says this in most handbooks.

We have never had an insurance company refuse to pay out because their pet wasn't "up to date" with their vaccinations. More and more people are becoming aware of the risks and complications with vaccinations which is why the majority of insurance company's don't demand you vaccinate your dog.

I was thinking regarding insurance if you wait till 16 weeks for any vaccinations but take your puppy outside and it catches one of the diseases you vaccinate for. As a lay person I would not do that unless I had explicit blessing by my vet.

If I did wait until 16 weeks, I wouldn't let him walk on the ground until that time. From what I've been reading today I'm leaning towards getting the vaccinations done earlier.

Sparkling, I see what you mean about the insurance. Obviously this will need to be something I need to look into. I already plan to continue with pet plan so I'll read their t&cs properly.

I second Sparkling Raspberry in all that they have said. What an amazing response and a rare one at that!
The group she has suggested are quite frankly brilliant and have helped many people find their way with their dogs who have been vaccine damaged or are just starting out and do not want the same issues in their dogs.
What a rare find she is, a vet assistant at a practice which doesn't even endorse boosters? Fan-bloody-tastic! A set of people with some common sense and morals which override their need for financial gain from the public - bravo!

We no longer 'boost' our adult dogs and for any future litters we may have i will be advising the same as SparklingRaspberry. No puppy vaccs until 16 weeks old and then only one and thats it. We may use nosodes prior to this to help just to give the new owners some peace of mind that they can take their puppies out before the 16 week vaccine.

Alternatively, here is an article about immunization without vaccination and how to do it safely and then check (using titres) immunity

vitalanimal.com/prevent-parvo-distemper/

Good luck!

SparklingRaspberry - You Rock!

I was thinking regarding insurance if you wait till 16 weeks for any vaccinations but take your puppy outside and it catches one of the diseases you vaccinate for. As a lay person I would not do that unless I had explicit blessing by my vet

If i did wait until 16 weeks, I wouldn't let him walk on the ground until that time. From what I've been reading today I'm leaning towards getting the vaccinations done earlier

I can assure both of you, and whoever else is reading this, that your puppy won't catch any diseases by socialising it before it's vaccinations. You're probably more likely to get hit by a bus than your dog catching anything.

Your dog has a tiny window to socialise it properly so it can grow into a confident dog.
By the time you wait until your vet says 'it's okay' to take it outside, you've missed 90% of that window.

As I said, vaccinations are mainly all for money making. Dogs have been around for thousands of years yet they managed to grow older than 16 weeks without vaccinations. I promise you, there is honestly no point in vaccinating before 16 weeks because it still has its mothers immunity. She isn't gaining anything from this vaccination apart from a massive risk of health problems. Most vets will scare you into thinking you're dog will fall over and die from every disease going if you dare put it on public ground before vaccinations.

Build up your puppies own immune system!

thank you Queeny

It's great to see someone else on here who is also aware of how bad vaccinations are especially early vaccs and boosters

It makes me so happy to see more and more people educating themselves on this sort of thing instead of believing every single word that comes out their vets mouth.

I'm going to regret engaging with this I'm sure but some of the anti-vacc movement makes me want to tear my hair out. I can absolutely accept the evidence based stuff - titre testing, for example - but homeopathic nosodes? Really and seriously?

I strongly disagree with Sparkling, puppies regularly die because they are not vaccinated. It breaks my heart every time we loose a pup to parvo or lepto who is unvaccinated. It devastates my team when in happens as you nurse those pups so hard. In the UK currently these diseases are very present and are a very real threat to unvaccinated puppies.

I'm going to regret engaging with this I'm sure but some of the anti-vacc movement makes me want to tear my hair out. I can absolutely accept the evidence based stuff - titre testing, for example - but homeopathic nosodes? Really and seriously

Have you researched properly? Do you even know what nosodes are? They protect better than vaccinations except they do not come with the health risks.

puppies regularly die because they are not vaccinated. It breaks my heart every time we loose a pup to parvo or lepto who is unvaccinated. It devastates my team when in happens as you nurse those pups so hard. In the UK currently these diseases are very present and are a very real threat to unvaccinated puppies

Can you tell me how many puppies/dogs you've lost to parvo and lepto?
There are many strains of parvo - so even after being vaccinated a dog can still catch it. Even those who do catch it, 90% of dogs will fight it absolutely fine if they're over 8 weeks (true fact by the way!)
The parvo vaccination has absolutely no effectiveness unless given after the mothers maternal antibodies have worn off?

The risk of vaccine induced autoimmune disease is a lot higher than the risks of parvo itself?

The vaccinations suppress the puppies immune system for a short while which actually means your puppy is more likely to catch something.

Not forgetting that the manufactures of these vaccinations do not recommend giving them any more than every 3 years right? Due to the risks.

I could go on..

3 puppies this year from Parvo already. I disagree with you stats on death peer reviewed studies show that 3 out of 4 all dogs who are unvaccinated who contract Parvo will die.
Yes I see immunemediated disease no where near at the same level as Parvo. Haven't had a case yet this year.
I am fully aware of vaccination schedule and follow WSAVA guidelines. I will continue to practice evidence based medicine.

I would not wait until 16 weeks if you want to socialise this pup and get them out and about.
While its true one vaccine as a puppy is all thats needed after 16 weeks its does not mean the puppy is actually safe until this time.

you are risking having the maternal antibodies dropping at the normal time frame (7 to 12 weeks..longer in some breeds like rotties-link at the end of the page explains well) and having a puppy with no immunity at all to this horrible disease until it gets the very late vaccine.That timeframe window is also the most likely infection time for parvo.....and when they are least likely to survive infection with the diseade.

As for the poster who says its not a serious disease...
As a grim example when I was a student vet we had a litter of ten unvaccinated greyhound pups come in with parvo. We did every intervention we had available at the time to try to save them(intravenous fluids,antibiotics to prevent secondary infection, antiemetics to help control the vomiting..feeding those that could keep food down massive amounts of tlc) but its a viral disease and only their own bodies can fight the virus once its taken hold.
the parvo virue essentially works by detroying the cells in the digestive system. They vomited continually and their intestines essentially shredded off in a bloody diarrhoea for days...
This isnt a minor disease in a young animal.
3 out of 10 made it home alive. 1 thrived after the breeder told me later on that the other 2 were in his words "never right after".

Off the top of my head I can think of at least 20 other dead puppies from Parvo as a student but il admit I stopped counting after a while....
We used to give 50:50 odds when admitting a patient.higher odds if they were willing to pay and go to an emergency centre for heavier intervention then we could offer.

Once I moved areas to where vaccinations were more common and the disease is kept better under control with herd immunity Ive rarely seen this disease.

This is the vet partner site about parvo and explaining why the vaccines are given at intervals and a bit about titres etc

www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&C=&A=589&SourceID=

And the centre page with all the links about parvo disease listed.

www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?A

I could understand waiting until 12 weeks and keeping the pup isolated until that age as a prevention.....but the 16 week wait means missing the socilisation window and bringing an unvaccinated pup out and about before that age is negligent and a massive risk to take with this severe of a disease in my opinion.

Ps I also strongly disagree with sparkling.

Indeed posts like this help me understand why almost a thousand vets in the UK and more from overseas have requested that homepathy be banned as a veterianry practice as it is not evidence based medicine...and can cause unnessecary suffering to animals.

goodthinkingsociety.org/vets-call-for-a-ban-on-homeopathic-remedies-for-animals/

Besides if I wanted to make lots of money as a vet.....do you really not think that vets would make a lot from treating these severe diseases? When parvo emerged in the 80's it was rampent until vaccinations were developed! Parvo treatment bills usually go into the hundreds unless they die early on...(it often takes days before some pass on and others start to rally),bills can go to thousands at an emergency centre...... and yet we encourage vaccines instead because we dont want to see these animals suffering and dying....and people claim we are in it for the money.lol.

Most vets become vets in order to prevent suffering not to cause it for finaicial gain.
If I wanted to make money I would have gone into business or become a human doctor.
I chose Vet as I loved animals,I enjoyed working with animals and loved science and learning all about the reason behind how bodies work...

Ps apologies for all my typos! Im in oz, its late and I dont have spell check on my phone!

At the rescue centre I worked we would regularly have pat I puppies in from "breeders" or strays or owners bought them from someone who didn't vaccs. It happens worryingly often to people who buy off any old herbert on gumtree.

I really disagree with raspberry too.
I worked for 11 years as a vet in a relatively deprived area with a low vaccination rate. I have lost count of the number of puppies I have seen with parvovirus, certainly into 3 figures. Lots below 16 weeks. That's cases with a confirmed diagnosis.
Of the pups whose owners decided to go for treatment (unfortunately many had to be euthanased on welfare grounds as they were too unwell by the time their owner brought them in or owners couldn't afford any treatment at all) I would estimate approximately 50% didn't make it, even with very intensive round the clock nursing and all the treatment available.
I have dogs myself and they are vaccinated.
I think there may be some confusion over the 16 weeks cut off. Maternal immunity begins to wane as early as 6 weeks but in some dogs (rotties and other Black and Tan breeds are usually mentioned) their immunity may not have waned sufficiently for the vaccine to be effective until 16 weeks. I encourage owners to not finish their vaccinations until 12 weeks at the earliest and offer a third vaccine at 16 weeks to rottie pups if the owner wants it. Plenty of socialisation can be done without risking your puppies health - training at home, at friends, trips in the car, socialising with known healthy vaccinated dogs etc etc.
As a practice we only vaccinate against distemper, hepatitis and parvo every three years with lepto yearly as per the manufacturers recommendations. We also offer titre testing yearly before booster if owners want it but it is very rarely done.
Please speak to your vet practice OP. It's our job to help you get the best, evidence based advice. Ask as many questions as you need to be happy that you are making the best decision for you and your pup based on your circumstances. I can assure you most of us would not be vets if we were in it for the money!!

Sorry about the essay! I have had to deal with too many horrible parvo cases to let posts like raspberry's go without comment!

I'm not a vet, but I can only give you my experience. My Border collie as a pup was vaccinated following vet advice and using their protocols. He is a working farm dog, so is out all day on the farm.

At 5 months old (so roughly 20 weeks) he caught parvo - the vet believed from foxes who we had found dead on the farm from some sort of virus, which was thought to be fox parvo.

There is NO QUESTION that the fact he was vaccinated helped save his life. Obviously he veterinary treatment and he was also hospitalised for 3 days, but he was able to fight the infection off and the vet gave his odds of a successful recovery when he was ill as very high indeed.

That's just my direct experience. The only thing I can suggest is that you have a proper conversation about it with your vet face to face, rather than ask for advice on an anonymous internet forum.

I've spoken to the vet and have booked in for vaccinations next week. Thanks for the advice on this thread. I had intended to vaccinate at 8 weeks before my conversation with the breeder but wanted to see if there was anything in what she was saying. I can see why someone would want to wait a bit longer to vaccinate but personally I feel like I've made an informed decision and am going ahead with vaccinations at 8 weeks and 10 weeks. I do think I will go down the titre blood tests route to check for amunity instead of automatic boosters.

I'm not sure if anyone was reading the OP properly, but I'd always intended to vaccinate. I just wanted to know if waiting slightly longer was better for my puppy.