Would you put a muzzle on your potentially aggressive dog in a public park?

[KindDogsTail]

I take my young dog to a small city park where lots of other friendly, family dogs play together, often off the lead. From time to time one will run up to another dog to sniff. They are all known to each other at least by sight even of they do not play.

There is a woman who regularly walks two large dogs on a lead there. One is a Labrador, the other a rottweiller. She never lets them off, but I had heard the rottweiller had pulled away from her the other day to go after a dog and she had not been able to hold him back at first as he is so strong. Everything was all right in the end. I did not see what happened myself but heard about it.

Today I saw her and thought I had better ask about the rottweiller, to find out more about it, incase our dog or another were to run up to it. I asked her what he would do if this were to happen? She answered that he would "Go for it". I asked, "Would he growl and warn, or would he bite?" She answered, "Oh, he would bite/attack it." I said "In that case do you not think it might be safer if he had a muzzle?" She said "No, because it is up to other dogs to be controlled and stay away." She said she did keep a tight hold of him and warn people to call their dog away.

I asked if there was a certain time of day she comes, and she said no she comes at all times of the day starting at 7.30.

I understand that in the law, she may be right - it is up to people to keep their dog under control and a dog on a lead which attacks another off the lead is not held responsible. But in practice, in a small friendly park where people bring their children and young dogs and puppies, and let them of the lead, in inevitably they run up to other dogs unless they are on the lead all the time.

I cannot understand her attitude, even if she is legally right. If I knew my dog was aggressive and were taking it to a small park, I would put a muzzle on it in case of an accident. A child could do something unexpected, let alone another curious dog. What would you think?

Would be interesting to know what training she's doing with her dogs.
Any counter conditioning and desensitisation exercises.

Whether she avoids triggers or just walk where they want regardless.

Agree that people should not let their dogs approach on lead dogs without checking.

I suppose living in the city there are limited places you can take your dogs.
But the amount of owners that let their dogs off the lead and haven't got 100% recall astounds me.

Our dog is 7 months, and he gets overexcited when he sees other dogs, so his recall goes out of the window.

I have a large park right outside my house, he is on a training lead. Yesterday first dog that came bowling over was a whippet, his owner could not get him back - silly sod didn't even have a collar on him - imagine how long he took to catch - luckily DH was with me, so he nabbed him whilst they were tumbling around. Another man walking his 2 had seen what happened, and decided it was ok to let his 2 come over and have a go too.

Day before I was by myself, 5 dog walkers in the field, only one lady came over and put hers on a lead apologising as she could see I was trying to train. The others let theirs come bounding over, didn't do a thing.
It's a big field, and I go there because you can see all around, so I can distract and move on if we see dogs at a distance. But can't stop them having irresponsible owners who let them charge over. I haven't a clue how I will ever be able to train him!
I have got to the stage now where I dread taking him out. There is no fun in it at all. Lunchtimes I just walk him round the pavements and practice heel work.

I read something interesting the other day that said under th Dangerous Dogs Act it is an offence if a person feels threatened that a dog might bite them. A dog could fall under this category for simply running up to someone who is afraid of dogs or jumping on them.
So 'Fluffy' the adorable little dog who would never hurt a fly but is very friendly and playful could leave their owners liable.
If you can't get them back under every situation, don't let them off!

I'm with you SilverBat, only time mine are off lead is in a deserted field and if I see anyone coming in the distance they go straight back on. Their recall actually isn't bad but I don't 100% trust it so I won't run the risk of them bothering other dogs or people for precisely the reasons you mention. It's my job to look after my dogs and that includes making sure they don't do anything which might lead to a prosecution and their possible destruction (they're staffies which, unfortunately, adds to the likelihood of people being scared of them) or them being hurt by a defensive/aggressive on lead dog.

So 'Fluffy' the adorable little dog who would never hurt a fly but is very friendly and playful could leave their owners liable.
Yes, absolutely. I met a dogwalker last week who's husband broke his ankle because a small offlead dog tripped him up. He's a self employed builder and off work with no money coming in while off sick. In process of getting compensation from dog's owners.

tabulahrasa Fri 22-Jul-16 00:45:54
Kinddogs - he's got joint and spinal issues that cause pain and he's had surgery for the joint problem

I am very sorry about your poor dog having had to go through all and for his pain, and completely understand why other dogs must stay away. You really have done everything possible to let people know too, which I for one would be very grateful for if I were near you with a dog. Imo you are being exceptionally thoughtful.

In the future I shall be even more vigilant about not allowing my dog to approach any others without asking the owner.

Usually there is an interested inviting body language with dogs who would like to meet each other, but I can see the best thing is to presume nothing.

Thanks for all your answers. They have made me think about the issue more carefully. I can certainly see it would be unwise to allow a dog to run up to play or sniff another dog without asking owners first, and that there are many dogs who for various reasons must be left in peace.

Using the example of walking along a road with traffic as a measure, is there ever absolutely certain recall to the extent where a person would dare let their dog off a lead there? I don't think there is really, but for me that should not mean dogs can never play freely with other dogs off lead when space makes it possible, when other owners agree, and with care.

Nevertheless I can absolutely see the point people are making- about ill dogs, dogs being trained, fear aggressive dogs, dogs minding their own business who do not want to play and - and as I told Tabulah will be even more vigilant myself.

I would repeat though, that if I thought my dog might really attack and could kill another annoying dog, I would put a muzzle on it, and for me it would be no comfort to think he/I had been in the right if anything bad happened.

Its good to know that generally a dog that is aggressive if approached by another dog would not react in the same way to humans.

I'm glad you've taken on board that there are various reasons why it is a good idea to realise your dog shouldn't be running up to unknown dogs. If you know them, then play away! (sounds a bit patronising, but I find it hard to express the right words, so meant in a friendly way)

I have met one dog who was off the lead on the road, he was a lab and an absolute sweetie ( this was pre my doggie days). Quite old though, and probably didn't have the energy to run out into the traffic. I can't imagine ever being able to feel secure enough to do that though. Wishful thinking!
The trouble is, dogs, however well trained can be unpredictable.
The other day we were in our local pub beer garden, a boy who IMO had special needs, kept coming over. I was showing him how to make our dog sit/lie down etc with a treat. He kept putting his face near our dog, which even though he has never shown any aggression made me nervous. I kept saying to the boy that it was not a good idea to get so close to a dog, but obviously he wasn't getting what I was saying. His dad finally came over after a couple of minutes (which felt like hours)! He didn't back up what I said, just sat there smiling.
Of course dogs should be able to play off lead, I live for the day mine can!!!!!
BUT you need to guarantee that they can be recalled when they need to be, which I cannot guarantee with mine.
Emergency stop is a good one to train too.

Silverbat, we once had a female lab who we trusted to stay near by even along a road, and I think some collies and alsatians can be like that too, but I wouldn't risk it now. There are some breeds that are much easier I think to be sure about walking safely to heel by a road. The trainer we went to recently though, said she never would trust even a trained dog in traffic, just incase something unusual happened, such as seeing someone they know on the other side.

It is very difficult about children who put their faces near dogs faces, and absolutely nerve wracking. I can see how difficult that would have been. When that has happened I have tried to get my hand between the child and the dog's face and tried to get them to pat the back of the head - and tried to explain they must not put their face near. As you say, it is difficult when the parents don't realise what a bad idea it is.

Emergency stop would be a really useful skill. I'll see about any links for how to teach that!

I find "leave" is one of the most useful commands.
I use it when he's running off lead and heading for a dog or person I don't want him to approach, as soon as I shout leave he veers away from them and heads somewhere else without breaking stride and doesn't need to be recalled.

why 'trust' a dog to be near traffic and not be on a lead? I can never understand this at all. the only sure-fire way to keep your animal safe (and those poor drivers who could inadvertantly hit it and be devastated) it to keep it on a lead. I just don't understand why not use a lead or avoid those unwinding string leads that are also unsafe next to traffic.

bless them... ddogs are one of the most sociable and friendly things we have that create social glue between many sstrangers and other ddogs. I do get that all ddogs need to learn to approach strange ddogs carefully but if they do so and still get attacked then yes absobloodylutely muzzle it, or as it can't run around anyway walk away from the places other friendly ddogs can run free, or what the hell fun is it for the ddog or the owner? seems very pointless and distressing for all doesn't it?

everyone is worried and no in reality all ddogs are not controlled but are very friendly and don't deserve being eaten alive by one thats not happy around other ddogs and yet walked around them and not muzzled.

the role of any responsible ddog owner surely!?

i'd hate to go anywhere with ddogs that had to be continually under command rather than just free-playing, with the one's that can''t freeplay taken elsewhere where they'd be happier, or made safe around others as if the owner can't stop a ddog from attacking others isn't it a bit rich to expect others to control their ddogs on freeplay when they can't do the same for their own??

"if the owner can't stop a ddog from attacking others isn't it a bit rich to expect others to control their ddogs on freeplay when they can't do the same for their own??"

The thing is...

I can stop my dog from attacking other dogs unless they come within about 15cms of his head, I shouldn't have to muzzle him because legally while in public dogs are supposed to be under control and 15cms away from an on lead dog with an owner telling you he's unwell/doesn't like other dogs is really not under control.

But I muzzle him even though it actually means I'm hugely limited in the training techniques I can use because the muzzle interferes with them because it's not the dog's fault that their owners are too self involved to care that they're stressing my dog out and ruining my walk.

Not all dogs want to play with other dogs, whether that's as extreme as biting or just getting mildly irritated, not all dogs are healthy enough to be offlead playing with other dogs...most dogs will get old and possibly arthritic, they all should be fine to walk on a lead without being harrassed by other dogs.

But why shouldn't my dog get to walk on grass, splash in the pond and be able to sniff plants and be able to let on a longer lead without fear of wandering into the road and being squashed. Parks/fields and beaches also generally have much more space so I don't have to squeeze past people or dogs on narrow paths or walk along traffic which frightens her. My dog is frightened of people so walking her in a residential area is just as stupid, I have much more room on fields than in streets.

Also she is under control. More so than any off lead dog. I can stop her attacking another dog as long as it stays away from her personal space, a place a dog shouldn't be in the first place.

Dogs on leads have as much right to enjoy the park without being pestered as everyone else.

My dog is sometimes on a lead in a park or a field and I hate it when dogs run up and start dancing round to play

Nope not aggressive but if he is in work mode (assistance dog ) a off lead dog is potentially distracting (he ignores luckily )but good chance a off lead dog could end up potentially with paw under my powerchair wheel

Which means I then have to stop and wait for a owner to come up or have to try moving carefully to make sure I not hurt some random dog .Which then spoils my walk etc

And yes my dog no coat/harness will play but goes on lead if another dog on it

If a dog is on lead, the etiquette is heel yours past or put the lead on too. An owner with 2 staffies did this and I was very grateful, mine were on lead, not very good with other dogs but won't go up to them. Mine react poorly if another dog bounces in their faces.

The next owner-also a staffie-failed to recall her dog, tried but not very hard. Mine were put back on the lead, hers came up to mine and a fight ensued. I was fuming. There was lots of space and time for her to see a way round this. Makes me so cross.

Should add if over excited of lead dog bounced on mine or caused accident when mine is working

It is actually treated as dog attacking a person so more serious guidelines

i think fair comments, not all dogs want to play, no... and some are very poorly, and will, quite rightly tell another dog off under such circumstances, but that is miles away from a dog that the owner cannot prevent from attacking a perfectly amiable dog free running and being friendly. the lday had already been told that initually she actually hadn't been able to control her rotty. with a lab and a rotty that both have to stay on lead that is something you can't guarantee, i have big ddogs and wouldn't take the chance with two that were like that, and being so powerful..

also i think the law is a bit weird here, when clearly the attacking ddog is completely out of control (despite being on a lead)

SooWrites is soo Right. Each owner needs to be taking responsibility for their own dog and then we wouldn't have any of these problems. Off lead dogs are not 'entitled' to play with any dogs they want to, and should be kept under close control.

being social is what most ddogs are all about. of course they can play with any dog they want to that wants to reciprocate, but attacking that ddog is wrong, lets not being victim blaming....

The problem is though that dogs that rush up to play with dogs who will retaliate by biting aren't exactly victims, they're instigating it.

Rushing up to play isn't actually well socialised dog behaviour, well socialist dogs approach calmly and wait to see how the other dog reacts, if it's a clear nope not interested they then back off.

Any dog rushing up, playing straight off or sticking their nose straight in for a sniff is actually really rude by dog standards...it'd be like you running up to a total stranger and hugging or kissing them without any sort of introduction or greeting.

Any responsible dog owner would

I frequently walk my lab round the local parks and fields as she loves having a good sniff in the bushes at all the wildlife which she obviously doesn't get the chance to do when we walk the streets. She is so nervous around some dogs (and totally fine with others?!) that it really does spoil our walks when dogs come bounding over off the lead.
It's obviously that she is on the lead as she can be unsociable so it drives me mad when people make no attempt to call their dogs back and it's always left to us to try and change direction or hide behind bushes etc!!

you are blaming a happy boisterous ddog for having its head ripped off... and if i had a nervoua unhappy around other ddogs kinda ddog myself the last thing i would want to force it to do is face or be in any situation where it will come across many other ddogs! that doesn't seem fair as these are the unhappy ddogs and you cannot expect roads, streets, footpaths/parks to not have a ddogs suddenly emerging from round the corner or out behind a tree or running close by playing games with another ddog friend!

why would you expect everyone else to maneouvre around you because your ddog has problem with other ddogs? i wouldn't want to subject mine to that if they couldnt handle it. i would change direction and do often if there is a ddog i don't like the look of or mine are too keen to meet and i want to slow them down to bring them under control.

In real life, in reality out there in the parks there are tons of good loving ddogs who are managed reasonably well with very pleasant owners who don't worry overly about what they're ddogs are doing and this stuff just happens.

My DIL has a lovely Jack Russell type mongrel who can be quite scarey to little kids & other small dogs so we put a soft muzzle on her in public spaces when off the lead. Most owners of Rottweilers that I know walk their dogs at unsociable hours or away from other folk.

"why would you expect everyone else to maneouvre around you because your ddog has problem with other ddogs?"

I don't, mine is muzzled and on lead, I walk him at stupid times and I always move out of the way - across roads or off paths

Still get dogs coming over and harassing him.

"i wouldn't want to subject mine to that if they couldnt handle it."

But as you've just pointed out, dogs are everywhere.

"i would change direction"

I'm not faster than an off lead dog.