Question about not vaccinating?

[SmileAndNod]

I always had our old dog vaccinated, wormed, flea treated, insured etc. Never occurred to me to do any other than the vet recommended.

I was speaking to someone this week who hadn't had their dog vaccinated, doesn't worm (but does a worm count in poo) as their dog is healthy. Their research has shown that all the treatment isn't really necessary and vets are just about making money

We are (hopefully) getting a pup, which will be vaccinated etc. Would it be ok for the two dogs to play together? Would they be any risk to either of them illness wise ?

Please excuse my ignorance but I've never considered it before.

"as a vet to be fair, you only see sick animals"

That's not true, she'll see all the healthy ones at vaccination time.

I worm, flea treat and vaccinate as a matter of course - the boarding kennels wouldn't take her otherwise.

I worm ddog, do a dog equivalent of nit checking for fleas, he hasn't been vaccinated for about 5 years, I think all those boosters for the first 10 years will have topped him up. He is old and anti social avoids all contact with other dogs has severe anxiety when he even walks past the vets. I am going to let him take his chances for his remaining years.

Parvo is a HORRIBLE disease and I wouldn't wish it on any dog, young or old. If you have a puppy and it contracts parvo (which can be from muck on car wheels, other dogs poo etc) you can be banned from owning animals for a period of time because it IS preventable.

This happened to a lady down the street from me. I had no sympathy when she was inconsolable from her 18 week old puppies death, because she had should have gotten him vaccinated. Call me cruel if you like.

This is the same debate as if people want to vaccinate their children, ultimately it is their choice but herd immunity only works if the majority of the herd immunity.

Feel free to call me brainwashed but both of dogs are vaccinated on schedule every year because I love them. The same way that I drive my elderly father to get his B12 jab for his pernicious anaemia every 3 months, and his flu jab yearly.

can you let us know how they work Twooter as all i know is that a dead vaccine will not stimulate the required immune response so various toxins/poisons have to be used to stimulate it.

That's not true, she'll see all the healthy ones at vaccination time. the point was about parvo, and getting other than anecdotal evidence of the statement made.

but as I say, i do see both points of view and i can also see where the strength of argument lies in this forum

a lot of this argument sounds emotional and a bit nasty in places

Pesonally i think its a good thing that people are questioning.

who can explain herd immunity?

Shriek -

Herd immunity is basically when a disease dies out because everyone has a vaccine against it (think small pox) it can't spread because the majority of people have been inoculated to protect against it.

Then someone comes along and says 'Oh, I won't vaccinate because of herd immunity' because in theory their risk of getting the disease is low because the majority of people have been inoculated and the disease will never have much of an opportunity to become a epidemic.

BUT, if the majority of people stop getting vaccines with this thought process, suddenly there are more people in the 'herd' that are susceptible to the disease so therefore it has more of a chance to spread.

Hope that explains it.

Even simpler.

Herd immunity is relying on enough other people to vaccinate so there aren't enough outbreaks of a disease to affect you.

I think a good example of herd immunity no longer being so effective is measles in children. Measles was pretty rare in Britain until the scaremongering over the MMR vaccination. Suddenly children weren't being vaccinated and herd immunity to measles no longer existed in the same way.

Children started to contract measles and there were outbreaks of it in certain areas. Measles is a vicious disease that can leave children with life changing disabilities. Why would you risk that?

People are still arguing against giving children the MMR vaccination even though the 'research' that was carried out has been proved to have been false and flawed. People will believe what they want to believe.

Yeah Tabulahrasa that sums it up nicely. Pretty selfish really.

its only 'scaremongering' if people speak out on one side of the argument but not the other?

Is it legitimate to question these processes? [when there's a correlation]

People WILL believe what they want to believe in all circs, yes.

why then, is anyone worried who is vaccinated? [about the herd immunityi being compromised] - i don't understand because surely if you believe, as it seems most of you do on here, why you don't question the whole 'herd immunity' theory - and how is it 'pretty selfish really' - as I assume you and yours are all vaccinated and therefore protected? Does it work both ways then?

Anyway, there is little point in this it seems, as its too emotive perhaps for many to discuss without throwing around insults.

There is only one way for many, and I wonder if this is any help to OP? Who based on the comments here will have had her answer, the rest is off topic? Do you have your answer OP?

Well I did provide a link to the very best peer reviewed consensus statement the included full details of how vaccines work, how immunity is measured. So I hope this helped the OP make their decision.
Shriek you maybe interested to know that veterinary science is leading the vaccine technology world and is moving to not using adjuvants ( toxins/poisons). We have been using the Canary pox technology in cats for at least 6years.

whats the alternative adjuvant? does it not have to present as a toxin to stimulate the required response? Adjuvant by its very name describes the process

I don't get why when you book a dog into kennels etc you need to prove its had all its jabs but you can turn up to a nursery/school without showing your red book proving your child has had its relevant inoculations.

My dog had his vaccines and kennel cough one when he was a pup, he still got kennel cough. My friend's puppy had his kennel cough vaccine, he recently caught it at 5/6 mths old. I know of 3 other dogs who all had the vaccine and all caught kennel cough so I don't get the boosters done every year.
I don't get my children's vaccinations updated yearly as surely their immune systems develop and that's the same for dogs.
But ultimately it's personal preference.
Another friend of mine treats her dogs homeopathically for worms and fleas. She uses Billy No Mates for fleas and they also do a natural worming treatment.

not all kennels are this way anymore. there are more and more now that do not require that.

Kennel cough vax deoesn't cover all strains

"and how is it 'pretty selfish really' - as I assume you and yours are all vaccinated and therefore protected?"

Because anyone relying on herd immunity (without a definite medical reason to) isn't willing to vaccinate their animals and instead is relying on everyone else doing what they're not willing to.

If people are anti-vaccination herd immunity is actually shitty reasoning, they should want other people not to vaccinate either...otherwise what they're saying is that actually I do believe in the efficiency of vaccines, but I'm going to let the rest of the population protect my dog instead of doing it myself.

"I don't get why when you book a dog into kennels etc you need to prove its had all its jabs but you can turn up to a nursery/school without showing your red book proving your child has had its relevant inoculations."

Because the laws over what nurseries are allowed to do are different to what kennels are allowed to do and so kennels get to choose whether they insist on vaccinations or not.

Adjuvant is the technical name used to describe any substance that is used to present a dead virus or bacteria to the immune system.

So there are modified live vaccines viruses or bacteria that are still live, but have been altered to prevent them causing disease, but have sufficient activity to produce an immune reaction. An example of this would the feline calicvirus vaccine.
Adjuvanted vaccines as described above.
Novel technology vaccines most commonly they use a virus that will not affect the target species to carry the antigenic portion (bit that stimulates the immune response) of the virus or bacteria to the target individual. An example would be Merial's leukaemia vaccination for cats.

Kennels don't get to choose they are required to protect against infectious disease under their animal boarding establishment licence. There are two methods of doing this one request vaccination or two maintain complete isolation for all animals for the duration of their time in boarding. Individual local authorities can further interpret this legislation and the local authority may demand that all animals are vaccinated.
The difficulty with total isolation is that this can potentially compromise the welfare of the dog if is used to company.
So what do I do with my own pets? My dog is often in the clinic so is relatively high risk particularly of kennel cough he has kennel cough every year, lepto every year and distemper, hepatitis and parvo every third year.
My cats are much lower risk and neither are carriers for herpes or calicvirus, but they do go out and get into bust ups with other cats do are at risk of leukaemia. They have leukaemia every year and flu and enteritis every third year.

Ah, I know nurseries and schools are the opposite you see, they're not allowed to insist on vaccinations.

Oh ok. I still think it's a crazy rule though in a way.
Surely if you haven't vaccinated your pets that's your choice and if they get sick then that's down to you. Alternatively, if you have vaccinated your pets they should theoretically be fine to mix with dogs who haven't been vaccinated as they then shouldn't catch anything nasty?!!
Or I being too simple in my thinking of this??
I've luckily never had to put my dogs in kennels and I've owned my own dogs since I left home in 1997 (not the same ones obv!)
But if I ever needed to or needed to use the local doggy day care place then it would be a flat, no way.
That puts pressure on people to pay up year after year for their annual boosters.

Why to most human vaccines work for life( maybe with a couple of boosters) while canine ones need to be topped up between one and three years. I may be cynical but does the fact animals are in a private healthcare sector whilst people have the NHS have anything to do with it. Yes this maybe cynical but it interesting the number of fillings done by dentists dropped massively when the payment per intervention was changed.

We still have freedom of choice here in the UK (from the govt for schools/DC) but notso in the states and perhaps other countries i think.

this: A tablet a day keeps the patient at bay: the health hazards of prevention – vaccinations and pharmacoprophylaxis BSEM conference 11th March 2011
Looking specifically at vaccines, Dr Halverson pointed out that most vaccines were both THelperType 2 inducing and IgE stimulating, thus likely to stimulate allergy in an atopic (allergy prone) subject. Moreover, aluminium, frequently used as an adjuvant (a substance included in the vaccine to increase its potency) is a powerful inducer of IgE.
However, actually catching some of the infections against which we are vaccinating our children appears to reduce their risk of allergy dramatically. Catching measles reduces the risk of asthma by 80% and of allergy in general by 30%; chicken pox, caught under the age of eight, reduces the risk of eczema by 45% and reduces the risk of severe eczema by a dramatic 96%.
The timing of the administration of the vaccine also seems to be important. Children who completed the triple course after 12 months reduced their risk of developing hay fever while if the first vaccine was delayed from two month to five months old, the risk of asthma was reduced by 50%. (Measles killed around 50 UK children per year before the vaccine but asthma kills over 100 children in the UK now…)
Dr Halverson also pointed out that the conclusions drawn from scientific papers were often at odds with their results. For example, is was generally concluded that the MMR vaccine was not a risk factor for asthma and eczema, a conclusion that was in direct contradiction to the results of the research.
From the BSEM study day conference 11.3.11 notes from
www.foodsmatter.com/conference_reports/articles/bsem_2011_tablet_a_day.html

this is not the reasoning behind 'herd immunity' and therefore and even it if was tabularasa it nothing to do with being 'selfish' because according to those whose belief in vaccines is absolute why would they care, they have chosen to vax and therefore protected right? so not selfish at all because it won't affect them right?

Anyway,yeah... money, money money... its all very interesting

its still a free country (for humans at least) - but sadly KC are pushing more and more nanny-state and still don't stand for much.

... but those vaccinated shouldn't be worried right?

Poor ddogs do get very stressed in kennels, more so because of all the other ddogs in there! All my ddogs would have a far less stresful time if they were in kennels without all the other families dogs.

Most of these threads have totally confused me

Surely you choose to vaccinate because you believe it will keep your dog protected (this has been proven for most vaccines, although Lepto and kennel cough do not cover all strains) cheaper than titre testing so not money money at all.

You don't vaccinate due to concern over the safety of the vaccines and other health issues they may cause - your option then is to check your dog is protected by Titre or worm counts - this costs more than vaccinations

Or you don't vaccinate and are aware of the risk to your dog

KC pushing more and more nanny-state -?