It used to be children who were seen and not heard.... now it seems to be the attitude to dogs

[jenniferjane21]

We have an 8 month old collie cross puppy. We are taking her to obedience classes and puppy agility, which she loves. She is full of life, but training well; even her dog walker commented how good her recall is.

So far, so normal. The issue is walking her. We live on the south coast, in a populated area but not a city. When we are walking on the greens and parks round here we keep her on a lead. To walk her off lead, we go to the sea, but I don't think we have had a walk by the sea yet where someone hasn't said she should be on a lead.

The issue seems to be that she is a puppy who runs around. She is not barrelling around knocking into people or dogs, she is not barking, she is not biting, she is not aggressive, she is not chasing. Yet we have had comments like "She's a danger to children" (Really? we have 3 dc so she is more than used to children).

Today an older lady told me she should be on a lead because she had run up to say hello to her small dog. Apparently her dog had been frightened by a large dog when it was a puppy, so I understand her concerns (though her dog didn't look remotely upset to me!) and I put our dog back on the lead immediately, but it annoyed me that she was losing off lead time for simply behaving like a puppy. If she were a difficult dog, I could understand it, but this is NORMAL puppy behaviour. It feels to me like puppy behaviour is not allowed, like children were not allowed to be children years ago.

I know our dog will settle as she matures, but meanwhile, walking her is becoming less and less of a pleasure. The nearest contained dog walking area is 20 mins drive away and open countryside further away, so I'm not sure where to take her for off lead. I can't believe that walking her on an extendi lead at all times will give her the exercise she needs!

This is the first puppy we've had; we've had rescue dogs before, so I guess I'm not used to people's reactions to lively dogs. It's the one thing that makes me think I wouldn't get a puppy again

A dog without perfect recall IS a danger though.

They could run into the road and cause an accident when a driver swerves to avoid them.

They could run up to a dog who is leashed before they are known to attack other dogs and a serious fight could ensue.
Even if the other dog is muzzled, it could still cause extensive damage, muzzled dogs have managed to kill rabbits and fracture dogs ribs before now.

If a fight has occurred and one of the owners tries to separate the dogs, as many do, the dog could redirect aggression and attack the person, hello heavy court costs!

They could run up to a person who hates dogs and get themselves injured.
you know they mean no harm but the other person doesn't, many people will kick or lash out in other ways because they are afraid.

They could run up to a child who is scared of dogs, again, you know they mean no harm but it can be very traumatic got the child.

Dog thefts are on the rise, a dog with poor recall who runs up to people is at higher risk of being stolen.

There is a big difference between a dog who almost always has infallible recall and very rarely might ignore the call the first or second time and the dog who persistently ignores a request a return and treats recall as optional.
The latter is dangerous and very inconsiderate towards others.

Not to mention if you live in a rural area, if your dog has poor recall and chases livestock as a result the farmer is well within the law to shoot your dog.

excellent recall is necessary for the safety of your dog aswell.

Anything COULD happen, Buttholelane. having a dog without recall is a misery. An absolute misery. Working dogs work are very able to work at a distance and dogs running around having a lovely time are not neccesarily out of control. Dogs are not robots, and even robots can go horribly wrong. They can't even get up if they fall. The OP sounds as though she has a well behaved normal puppy.

Well, you know we had 3 different labs growing up and I now have one of my own. I know many, many dog owners of all different breeds and meet many more on my twice daily walks. Not one of those dogs have perfect recall yet all seem to cope so I'll probably just carry on with my dangerous dog doing the best I can, working on recall and hoping I don't meet any of the mumsnet robot dog owners on the way!

Excellent recall doesn't equal 'robot dogs' , it is just an outcome of a competent owner who has invested time and commitment in training.

I do agree that dog owners should cut a bit of slack to puppies and adolescent dogs who are still learning

And they probably never will.
The more they get away with practising coming back when it suits them the more ingrained the behaviour gets.

It's all fine and dandy for them and their owners but it's not very nice for the owners of dogs are shit scared of other dogs, who have worked so hard to try and help them over their fear who get set back, again, again and again by friendly out of control dogs who are 'just saying hello!'

Nor is it nice for children who happen to be terrified of dogs, but hey ho, it's okay because 'he won't hurt you!'

It's not about having a robot dog, it's about being considerate to other people.

If none of these dogs have decent recall then it's likely only a matter of time before one bounds up to the wrong dog, on lead, and what then?
I bet the owner of the off lead dog will be up in arms about the savage, dangerous, vicious beast that must be put to sleep before it kills a child!
But if the dog had decent recall in the first place then it would be safe.

Lazy is what it is.
Because people either can't be arsed or find it too hard, so they make excuses - oh, it's cause he's a hound! Oh, he's just being a normal dog! Oh, he's so stubborn! Oh, he just wants to play! Oh, he just wants to say hello!

There's a huge difference between fairly reliable recall and dogs that only come back occasionally...if they feel like it.

I've got a dog aggressive, muzzled on lead dog - you can tell by the owner whether they expect the dog to come when they call, they're not the owners that I moan about, it's the ones that clearly don't expect their dog to come back to them, or in fact even care that they have no control over their dogs.

OP - try walking somewhere else, because if my dog's behavioural issues I really notice how dogs are allowed to behave when I'm out with him and it definitely varies by where I go.

I too live up a North Sinclair and thankfully have some great walks on my doorstep where the vast majority of other owners are very friendly and are happy to let off lead dogs socialise ,and are sensible enough to realise that in the vast majority of cases dogs enjoy meeting and running around with other dogs.I have been up on the moors chatting happily with several other owners and we have had 12 dogs playing around of all breeds and sizes having a great time.Also I have experienced meeting the one nervous and hostile owner yelling 'get your dogs away from my dog' when mine were standing yards away just curious,not invasive,whilst she picked her dog up and made an enormous fuss.No wonder her dog has issues.
This won't be a popular opinion but after 30 plus years of owning well trained and happy dogs there's an increasing number of over protective and nervous owners out there who simply hate any other dog coming anywhere in the vicinity of their dog.You have my sympathy OP.It seems if your dog is off lead you are automatically in the wrong.Sorry but I think some owners with on lead dogs are sometimes unreasonable and uncompromising too.

I agree snugglepiggy, I'm not sure that I am happy to be lumped together with the owners who can't be arsed to train their dogs while anyone who has their dog on a lead should be absolved of any responsibility for training theirs! I think there are far too many people who have dogs on leads because they can't be arsed to train them personally, and that is dangerous as what would happen if one of them got loose? Please don't get the impression I don't care - I have spent far more time and money training my bloody dog than I thought I ever would, but she is an animal and as such unpredictable. I am trying my best though I can assure you of that.

Maybe these nervous and overprotective owners used to be perfectly fine until arsewipe owners started to allow their out of control dogs to 'say hello' to dogs who were shy, bounce into and injure dogs who were sore or teeny breeds or 'tell off' their dogs?
Maybe their dog is incredibly vicious hence them shouting keep your dogs away?
Maybe their dog is blind? Old?

I daresay to a sight hound owner I might seem a nervous and overprotective owner because I will go out of my way to avoid them.

This is because my dog was set upon by a group of sight hounds, on more than one occasion and I don't want to give her the stress of interacting with them as she is visibly anxious and I don't want to risk someone else's dog getting hurt because I cannot guarantee that my dog would not attack a sight hound out of fear if one approached her.

Perhaps you should try talking to them when you don't have the dogs with you?
Their reasoning might surprise you.

IMOP All dogs should be on leads all the time in public. But then I loathe dogs with a vengeance.

Reikizen - your post gives the impression you are struggling with recall training?

If so, get a long line / training lead, a treat bag and a mix of high value like chunks of roast chicken, hot dogs, cheese etc.

Go to a quiet area, relatively free of distraction.
Let the dog run about on the long line then call its name, if it comes to you immediately reward with a treat and let it go again.
If it doesn't return, call it again once more and only once more while reeling the line in so it has no choice but to return.
Give the treat and let it go again.
Repeat. Repeat in short sessions multiple times a day.

Gradually start increasing the distractions.

When the dog reliably comes back even in a high distraction area, let go of the lead but keep it on the dog so you can step on it and reel it back if he doesn't obey you.

When he is reliable coming back on the trailing lead, lose the lead completely.

I hope my post doesn't sound arrogant or bossy, genuinely just trying to help!

My mum has a 4-year-old collie who HATES puppies. They stress him out with their unpredictable behaviour. Your pup would get told pretty quickly I'm afraid.

Yep the puppy would get told off by the older dog .Thats how they learn.If they never get off lead or get slapped back on one the minute another dog is on the horizon what hope have you of teaching re-call and good manners.
I'm not talking about dogs on leads with genuine issues from bad experiences in the past.If someone calls out politely that their dog doesn't like other dogs I call mine back and either change direction or put them back on the lead until they pass.My dogs have been trained,don't pester other dogs but don't automatically fear them either.And yes I've had rescue dogs with issues too.
I'm talking about the idiots like the man who walked down a field towards my friends and I ,whose dogs were all happily playing ,and said 'get your dogs on a lead and under control,my dog is old blind and doesn't like other dogs' and then hit one of the dogs with a stick and walked straight through us all when he could have taken a different route round the field.I'm talking about the owners who pick dogs up and screech and flap when other dogs are not even directly approaching theirs,instead of quietly and calmly walking on.And before I go I might as well say I'm not too keen and people who 'loathe 'all dogs either.But perhaps that's because I'm one of those weird people who thinks dogs,like people ,are mostly good and well behaved with just the odd ares-hole here and there to spoil it for the rest of us who try to be tolerant and compromising.

I think you should only let dogs of lead if they come back when you call them.

As it's not fair for dogs on leads

Not all people and dogs like your dog

This is all stuff I have learned the hard way with my own pup!

So I am working on recall and avoid situations where she can run up to dogs on lead.

Occasionally I get it wrong

But It is just how it is

Well, had our first uneventful walk this morning. We walked along a river and every time I saw anyone at all, I put her on the lead. This included 2 joggers, a cyclist, a man walking alone, a lady walking an on lead dog and a few off lead dog walkers. Seems sad, but if thats the the way it is, then thats the way it is. Definitely need to find somewhere quieter to walk!

This experience has really taught me not to judge other dog owners whose dogs are not behaving perfectly (unless the dog is clearly out of control and owner seems to have given up). And I have to say I don't understand what people are supposed to do with puppies who need off lead walks and have good recall but not perfect because they are excitable. Give puppies a chance!

I really hope you find somewhere for your collie cross to go off lead and meet some like minded dog owners.My dogs are Springers and would not get enough exercise or give me as much enjoyment out on walks if they were on lead most of the time.And they learnt how to behave off lead by being off lead,as well as going to classes.I am with you completely OP -unless a young dog is aggressive ,over bearing or out of control it would be nice if other owners could be a bit more patient.Same way I try not to get exasperated with learner drivers.If they don't get out on the roads and practice ,how on earth are they supposed to learn and improve.

Jenniferjane, you only need to do this until the dog will reliably return straight back to you when called the first time.
I have posted above how to do this.

When her recall good and therefore, you can call her back to you before she bounces up to someone walking past, she can be off almost 100%, the only time you will really need to leash her then is when encountering leashed dogs or people who look afraid.

It shouldn't take too long at all to perfect if her recall is already fairly good

:)

The thing is snuggle piggy, a dog doesn't have to be aggressive or overbearing to upset another.

Some dogs who are scared of others who have been doing really well at not trying to attack others could be pushed over their threshold by a dog invading their personal space.
Then it's back to square one.

Some dogs also, have absolutely no patience whatsoever with puppies and will tell them off for absolutely nothing and tell them severely.
This can impact on the puppies in a very negative way.

I have no problem with off lead dogs, even those who are a fair way ahead. As long as they are under control.
My dog is off lead 99.9% of the time but her recall is excellent, if it wasn't, I wouldn't feel it safe nor considerate for her to be off lead.

Jennifer, Inevrr put my dog on lead for other dogs that are off lead.

That is not necessary, don't think

Also, I find people are very forgiving about my pup. I would say for every negative experience I have 10 positives. ( she is bouncy and runs up to people and dogs but does not jump up at them, she just sits in front of them and looks expectantly (hopes to be fussed), then runs back to me.

I am working on improving recall, it is getting better, but work in progress.

I find that people respond in friendly manner as long as you are serious about getting your dog to come back to you/not bother people

Then again, I find most dog walkers are generallynice about dogs and fairly tolerant of pups.

Ilive in the country. Where do you live? I find town and city folk can be a bit more grumpy about other people's dogs

Why on earth is someone reading threads on the Doghouse if they loath all dogs???

My thoughts exactly Sinclair.

Don't know where the troll charge is coming from Easytoeattiger, buttholelane has made only sensible and balanced contributions. Where do you get the 'very, very angry' thing from? Are we reading the same thread? [genuinely ]