Help me make The Decision. I need advice please :(

[PoorOldDog]

I've namechanged, I've no idea if I'll be flamed for this, so I'd rather it wasn't under my usual name. If anyone thinks I'm being cruel, please say so constructively! :)

My old lady JRT is 15. Nearly a year ago she had either a stroke or old dog vestibular disease. Since then she has deteriorated, lost loads of weight despite eating like a horse, has lost most of her hearing and sight.

She has been on vivitonin which I believe has kept her tottering along.

In the last week, she has taken a bit of a dive, she sleeps a lot, bumps into things when she walks around, she looks like she's lost more weight (if that's possible). She is still interested in eating, I would say this is the only time she has any spark now.

The vet can't find anything extra wrong, just age. We're to take her back next week where no doubt the vet will want to run a battery of tests (again).
The vets are the sort to keep animals going if they possibly can, doing all sorts of tests and scans etc.
In all but the most dire of situations, their advice will always be to keep trying, so dh and I know that it is likely to be our decision, which feels quite shitty tbh.

So how do we know when it's the right time to make The Decision? (:()

She's been a fantastic dog, gentle with our dc, bags of character (code for; a bit of a bugger!), bright, lively and lots of fun to have around.
It's awful to see how much she's aged recently, but I'm sure she could be limped on a while longer, but it's whether this is right for her.
Is the spark we see at meal times enough to say that she has a good quality of life?

On the one hand, we don't want to be hasty and make a decision that we'll regret, wondering forever if it was too soon.

On the other hand, we don't want to leave it so long that she has no quality of life and she's living because we're too selfish to put her needs first (iykwim)

If she was your dog, what would you be doing?

If she was my dog I'd not subject her to any further testing. 15 is a great age and if she can't enjoy simple things such as a walk and a play I think it's time.

I'm sorry that's probably not what you want to hear. The is gets said alot but it's so very true.

Better a week early than a day late.

X

Better a day too early rather than a day too late is a phrase I've heard on here before and one I think is true.

Its such a hard decision and not one I've ever had to make for my own dog. Though I did make the decision for my mums dog when I was looking after him. A bit easier though as I directly asked the vet if she thought the dog was suffering and the vet said yes. Dog was old and starting to go into kidney failure.

I'm sorry. I can't think anyone here would flame you. Have you asked your vet what they think?

If she were my dog, I'd give her a fantastic last dinner and have her PTS as soon as possible. I've had two dogs who were elderly - in the first case we were at the beginning of the end and he walked into the vets happily, before he was in pain or distress, the vets agreed the time was right and he went very peacefully. With our second dog with hindsight as left it a day too late and she was distressed and howling (she had some dementia and loss of sight). She was PTS, but I remember her distress on the last night and next day, as we hoped she may 'pull round'. Better a week early than a day too late. I'm so sorry OP. dogs are so very precious.

Thank you for the honest replies.

I've hoped that the vets would say, but they won't, they offer more tests and more pills, but when it comes down to it, right now she's not happy :(

I know it's never going to be an easy decision, but I never thought for one minute that it would be this hard :(

She doesn't seem distressed, but she's not happy.

I'm concerned that I'll talk to the vet and they'll say that we should be doing xyz rather than saying it's the end.

Bugger shit. Namechange fail

If she's not happy, then that's your answer. I've dealt with this from both sides of the table, but still left my own dog too long - it took a quiet word from my mil for it to sink in. An occasional spark doesn't make up for the rest of it. I know it's hard, but sometimes it's the best for all concerned - you and your dog - to bite the bullet. I know that however distraught I was afterwards, there was still a relief that I could eventually stop worrying.

I'm posting as a vet. Firstly no need to name change because there is absolutely no shame in wrestling with this decision. I think how the conversation with the vet goes depends how you frame the questions you ask. It's rare that a vet will insist that an animal should be put down unless it is overtly suffering, and much more likely that it's a judgement call at what point in a gradual decline you should call it a day. Be honest and say you think her quality of life is deteriorating. Ask "what would you do if she were yours?"
My QOL checklist would include enjoyment of food, ability to rest comfortably, freedom from pain (on painkillers if appropriate) interaction with owners, interest in exercise (including pottering about at home if the individual is happy at that level) ability to toilet cleanly (or owner able to manage incontinence) proportion of good days to bad days.

I agree that I wouldn't want any more uncomfortable and stressful tests on her. Anything you discovered through further tests is highly unlikely to be curable at her great age. Even treatable conditions will not necessarily buy her a better quality of life at this stage.

So, if I was you, I would try to make her last days or weeks with you as comfortable and stress-free as you possibly can. Some vets will put dogs to sleep in their own homes rather than a last scary trip to the vets. Would that be something to discuss with the vet?

It is hard. It's probably one of the hardest decisions you have had to make so far. And dealing with the emptiness at home is just awful.

But you get by. How? Because you remind yourself every time you start to get upset or miss them, that you have spared them pain and suffering. By reminding yourself you gave them a life time of love. And by telling yourself that you were the owner you promised her you would be when it came to this time.

There is sadness and there is a hole in your life. But there is never regret that you did it.

Our old girl had a failed back end, incontinence, heart murmur etc, but she still had her spark and wanted tugs of war, her food (sometimes), short staggers round he block and soooo many cuddles.
One day she totally let us know, her eyes were so sad and she had given up, the change was astounding.
Some owners wouldn't be bothered with the intensive caring required for a very elderly dog, but I feel if the dog is happy enough, is still themselves-in a grumpy old lady way!- etc, i just couldn't kill them

Life without them is truly horrific, and your brain can't understand it until it's happened to you. I'd say keep her as long as you can, and as long as she can. Even though it was definitely the right time for our girl, having the vet come out to the house to kill our wonderful wonderful girl was the worst day of our lives, and no one had told me how bad it would be once they go :(

We had to make the very tough decision to say goodbye to our golden retriever 3 years ago. He was 14 1/2.

Although my vet didn't say what we should do either way, 6 months before we made the decision she told us to pick 3 things Harvey liked to do. When he doesn't do them any more the time is probably right.

The 3 things we chose were:
getting up to greet any visitor.
Wagging his tail when we spoke to him.
Going out for a walk.

When any member of the family came home he used to get up and greet us as though he hadn't seen us for a week. When we talked to him and said his name the tail used to wag and he was always up for a walk, even though we had to help him stand up as his back legs were going.

When he didn't really do those any more we made the hard decision and to be honest we probably left it a little bit too long. I think we delay the decision more for us than for them.

It's so difficult.
Bakingtins, going by your list:
enjoyment of food - yes

ability to rest comfortably - not sure, she breathes very loudly when asleep, sleeps a lot, looks like a bag of bones.

freedom from pain - no idea. I don't think she's in pain, the vet has never suggested pain, but I'll ask next week when we're there.
interaction with owners - she'll still have cuddles etc, but most of the time she looks fairly lost.
interest in exercise - no, not at all.
ability to toilet cleanly - poos and wees in the house but I don't think she's incontinent.

Twojues, I think the three things I would pick for our dog are walks (not interested), eating (still interested) and playing (not interested). Is two out of three enough to keep her going?

Evenbetter, this is the difficult thing, she is definitely happy and sparky at mealtimes, that's 3 x 5 minutes a day. (She has 3 meals to try to keep weight on her, but it's not working)

Before Christmas last year she was her healthy weight 6.75 kg, now she's under 5kg, although the vet doesn't seem overly concerned, and says this is common in old age, but she does look awful poor thing :(

No wise words, but just a few words of sympathy. You sound like you have given your little dog such a happy life. So many dogs are subjected to so much misery. She's been loved and cherished. Making the last choice for her is ultimately your decision, but I am sure she's knows she's been loved.

We had to make this decision several years ago, but our ddog was ill. He had an auto immune disease and the treatment was just awful. We, well me really, decided it just wasn't working. He was ill, incontinent and mainly unable to stand. I remember sitting on the kitchen floor with him at 5am waiting for my teenage son to lift him up as I couldn't. I just knew ...

I think that's probably where you're getting to otherwise you wouldn't be here asking. I totally agree with better a day too early than too late. Awfully hard decision to make.

It is such a hard decision to make and unfortunately it is going to have to be yours.

My goldie was pooing where he lay. Not because he was incontinent but because he just couldn't get up in time. He used to bark when he wanted to stand and I had to help his back end up. Once standing he could walk fine, although he couldn't get down the steps in to the back garden so we had to let him out the front where there were two shallow steps he could manage.

He still enjoyed his food. I again had to help him up as he wanted to stand to eat.

We got to say our goodbyes to him. I'm a childminder and the children I looked after got to give him a last cuddle which was very important to them as they had grown up with him. My son and husband came to the vets too and we sat next to him and gave him treats and said our goodbyes, cuddling him as he went. The vet didn't hurry us and we let her know when we were ready.

We had our old pointer put down 2 weeks ago.
She'd had a growth on her shoulder for about 18 months, the last time she saw the vet was when it first appeared.
Although it looked big and cumbersome, it didn't bother her. She was still eating, going for walks and interacting with us.
Then, about 10 days before we had her out down, her stomach started getting bigger. She looked like a little pygmy goat.
Rang the vet, booked them to come to the house and she passed peacefully on the sofa. Her sibling and our other dog came in to have a sniff of her body and that was that.
She was a beautiful dog inside and out and to have put her through tests to find out what was going on inside would have been unfair and ultimately futile. We were never going to put her through an operation at her advanced age.
I did ask the vet if we were doing the right thing and she said yes, if we didn't do it then, we'd be doing it in weeks, not months.

All my childhood pets were carried into the vets on their last legs because my parent's could never bring themselves to do it sooner.
Well it wasn't going to happen to any pet of mine.
I am at peace with the decision we made, even though we miss her dreadfully .

Such a sad time, enjoy your cuddles whilst he is still with you.

We are at the same stage with our oldest dog - he's about 17 (a street dog we took on 10 years ago) and is now blind, deaf, very wobbly on his legs, and has had at least 3 strokes in the last 3 years - but he still goes for a walk twice a day, even though he often falls as he misjudges the edge of the kerb.

We feel that while he still wants to go for a walk, and enjoys his food, his quality of life is good enough but when those go it will be time

It's always hard, and we've already had to have one dog PTS this year, but I try to look at what I'd think if it was someone else's dog, would I think they were cruel to keep them going?

I'm so sorry

This is one of the hardest things my DH and I had to do, just recently. Our dear, dear 10 year old Rhodesian Ridgeback was not well, but not in pain or worried, just quieter and not eating (but he was a terrible eater his whole life). We had no idea what was wrong, but I took him to the vet, because we were about to go on an overseas holiday and we did not want to leave him unwell.

His vet had us take him to hospital and after tests, it was clear that he had serious kidney issues - we never figured out the cause. We cancelled our holiday and he was in ICU for 3 days, then they let us take him home. But he had not eaten in 5 days, and we had to treat him 2 x per day with IVs. After 2 days at home, he was not improving at all, and he had still not eaten. The urgent care vet could only suggest a possible appetite enhancer, but warned us that it could change his behavior. But they would not tell us it was time to let him go.

That is when DH and I decided it was enough. It was really hard knowing that everything we did with him was the last time - last walk, last cuddle, last sleep. But although it still breaks my heart, it was the right thing to do. We fulfilled our promise to him - that we would not let him suffer unnecessarily.

I may be kidding myself, or maybe it is the only way I can cope with it, but when he was PTS, he laid his head on my Dh's knee, as if saying goodbye. I will never forget that look - it was so peaceful. I am so grateful to our vets for helping us through it.

You sound like you are nearly there - but nobody will or can tell you when the right time is, unfortunately you have to make that decision yourself. As long as you make it with the best interest of your dog in mind, you will get it right. Big unmumsnet hugs.

Costa, if she was someone else's dog it would be so easy to decide.

Please don't worry about the NC you won't be flamed, for being a thoughtful caring owner. You are struggling with the biggest decision you will have to take for a pet & its never easy.

You'll know if/when its time.

Then you have your decision

For our boy I think he has a little longer, he doesn't seem to be in pain or distressed, he sleeps most of the day, but in a calm, easy way, and he's on tablets to help his heart, joints, circulation and brain function - anyone seeing him out on his walk would see a wagging tail and a head held high and that's enough for now

Ask the vet what benefit there is to the dog in carrying out further tests? Where we previously lived there were a couple of the vets in the practice who were very keen to do further investigation/tests on our sick cat (and actually disobeyed our instructions at one point) - after that incident I refused to see them and requested the senior partner every time. In our case they were young and over enthusiastic more than anything else. Is there a senior vet you could talk things through with?

It sounds like in your heart you know what's best for the dog, it is the hardest decision to make, but we owe it to them to make it at the right time for them, not us. Give her a few good days, lots of cuddles and love and if you can have the vet come to the house so there's no stress and let her go quietly.

She's kind of taken matters into her own paws this morning. She's been massively sick with what looks like blood in it.
I'm taking her in at 12.
:( :( :(

Dh is coming home from work to say goodbye and look after ds who is home poorly.
I've never done this before, it's horrible :(

Thinking of you.