Going from two dogs to none ...

[Contraryish]

We currently have two dogs. One is an eleven year old, who is the kindest, gentlest beast. Everybody loves him, even self-confessed dog haters can see that he is a really good specimen. But he's poorly. After being fit and active his whole life, he's been diagnosed with liver damage and pancreatitis. He's on a cocktail of drugs and seems well in himself for the moment, but the long-term prognosis is not good.

Last year, as we knew no.1 dog was getting old and would not live forever, we got a new puppy. Also a lovely dog, albeit a bit more skittish, but he's young. We have put a year of love and hard work into him and come out at the end of it with a well-trained, beautiful, affectionate dog. The trouble is, on two occasions he has snapped and bitten. Once my son, now recently my husband. So we feel we have no choice but to find him a new home. If it were just me and my husband, we'd keep him, but we can't take the risk of him biting our children or their friends another time.

So it looks as if in the not-too-distant future we will be down from two dogs to none. My husband is adamant he does not want another as we cannot go through all this again. We are in bits. How are we going to cope?

That's absolutely true, and I agree that it's great the OP is asking questions. But these are questions for a behaviourist.

I've not made up my mind and I'm happy to take on the advice. But for me, dog ownership is not about avoidance techniques and mitigation strategies, it's about having a pet that you trust 100 % as a fully fledged member of your family. Maybe I have been spoilt by our first dog, who's been pulled and prodded and crawled over by babies and toddlers all his life. I had assumed that having a dog is about trusting them implicitly, because that is the only experience of family dogs, both mine and others, that I have. Perhaps that was wrong.

I understand that it can probably be resolved, or worked around, but if it means muzzling him or shutting him away when everyone else is having fun, is that fair on him either?

If I had known that the dog would cause physical injury and possible permanent scarring to both my son and my husband, I wouldn't have taken it on. I'd challenge anyone in my position to do so. To suggest that he hasn't crept into our hearts and we would be potentially rehoming him because we cannot be bothered to do anything is pretty ludicrous really.

Anyway, thanks for all those with constructive advice and sympathy!

I can't tell you what things would be like with your dog, OP, all dogs are different, which is why you need a 1 on 1 with a qualified behaviourist.

I can tell you that with my terrier he just chilled out after a while. It was as if the stress was building and building and each incident was triggered by something smaller than the last. Once we worked out his triggers and removed them and or counter conditioned them, he was much more relaxed in general. Some of his triggers are now good things to him, others he can tolerate, as long as they're stopped quickly. For instance, dd2's friend tried to lead him by his collar before I could stop her. At the beginning this would have lead to him snapping immediately, he was quite relaxed about it, tbh, he showed no signs of stress at all, although I still put a stop to it as there is no need for anyone to handle my dogs like that, much less a child.

While he was still at his worst, we didn't allow what ifs and buts to happen. He was heavily supervised around the children and if we were out somewhere where children were about we didn't take our eyes off him for a second. It's not forever and it's not as stressful as it sounds. Babygates and crates help a lot.

My dog was much worse than yours. He'd snap at us twice a day sometimes, we'd declared him cured by the time we were down to twice in 6 months He's fairly chilled and reliable now, although I always warn people that he has bitten and could bite again and let them know to keep their distance unless he comes to them (which he often does now, gone are the days when he'd squish himself into a corner and snarl at almost everyone)

But for all you know after a few months of working on things you may not need to muzzle him or shut him away. You won't know if you don't try. Fair enough if you try and it doesn't work.

Contrary, I'm sorry if you've found my posts hurtful.

I'm afraid you were wrong to assume you can trust any dog implicitly. All dogs can and will bite if put in a situation where they feel they have no other option.

And a very, very important point: I know you worry about "shutting him away" but dogs who show aggression do so because they are unhappy. He bit because he felt threatened in some way. Shutting a dog away from something that makes it feel that way is not unkind. And as Doin has explained, it is not that simple anyway. Yes, in the early days prevention of recurrence is vital. But in the long term behaviour modification usually involves many aspects of the dog's life and usually results in a more relaxed, calm pet anyway.

But how would I know I could trust him again?

Just for the record, no dog should ever be pulled or prodded or crawled on. These are the dogs who bite children "out of the blue".

contraryish you are blowing the situation out of proportion.

Many of the dogs that I have fostered and kept have had way worse bite histories than your dog and after behavioural treatment are ok. (two I have rehomed from mumsnetters that are now very happy contented dogs that just needed time spent on them)

Your dog will not have to be muzzled and locked away you are panicking. Get a professional to come to see you and the dog and assess the situation before you go off into a world of what ifs that will never happen.

This morning I have seen a GSD that was due to be put down for biting his owner - after behavioural treatment this dog has never bitten again - he was referred to me at 14 months of age and came back to see me today for a social visit aged 6 years.

A case i had yesterday was a dog that had snapped at a toddler in the household when the toddler went to grab the dogs collar. This dog has been seeing me for 6 weeks and now has a new "gotcha game" and loves having his collar grabbed - he will not bite again .

Your comment dog ownership is not about avoidance techniques and mitigation strategies I would rephrase to be that dog ownership is about training your dog to be happy in situations that they will encounter and be prepared to put in the time to ensure that the dog is comfortable in all situations. If you are not prepared for that do not get another dog.

Contrary a behaviourist will diagnose this aggression and then teach you how to identify triggers, read his body language and change how he feels about these situations.

I deal with situations like yours all the time. It's highly likely that you can manage this with a few simple changes (and commitment) - very, very worthwhile and you will emerge with a deeper understanding and bond with your dog.

But how would I know I could trust him again? That is a great question to ask and one I too would want to be sure of before I signed off a client.

The behaviourist will set up a behavioural package which will include over time situations that the dog will encounter on a daily basis in the environment that he lives. He will be given strategies and so will you to make sure that he can deal with all the situations he will be put in. You should be working as a team with the behaviourist and as a team will be taught how to feel comfortable again in each others company. In the meantime you will be given strategies to ensure that the dog (or you) go over threshold.

I think you just take the lead from your dog over trust. Of course I guess you can say you should never trust any dog 100%.

I wouldn't trust mine with small, unpredictable kids as I know he may snap if scared even though he hasn't for a year.

I'd trust him with anyone else 99.9% and don't worry about it.

However I'd never let him go into dd's room if dd has anyone else in there as its a trigger area for him. I also won't turn my back on him in dd's room but I trust him anywhere else in the house.

No dog can ever be trusted 100%, you should always treat them with respect. They all have the potential to cause serious or fatal injury.

They should be treat with patience, respect and understanding. Give them space you'd want in their position. If you were sunning yourself in the garden you wouldn't want someone leaning over you and sticking their face in yours would you? So don't do it to your dog. He is entitled to have his own likes and dislikes.

Similar if they're eating. I've all too often heard "but X told me to take his bones away from an early age to teach him whose boss. Why'd he bite me? " I love vodka as much as my dogs love chicken wings, if someone half inched my vodka mid sip I'd bite

OP - I think you are blurring the lines between what humans enjoy and what dogs do Perhaps your dog would prefer being away from all the 'fun', dogs have no concept of 'fair'. They do what works. Your dog snapped because (I assume) his space was invaded and he needed to communicate this. You can work on this, as per the advice given and by counter conditioning and by educating yourselves too.

My dogs are soft as soft can be. They are still dogs, with the propensity to react as dogs do. I wouldn't let either of my soft, gentle spaniels be 'prodded and crawled over' by babies and toddlers. That is just as dangerous as allowing them to approach a sleeping/dozing/relaxing dor for a whole variety of reasons.

Our 6 month old cocker will growl if one of the DC (usually DD) tries to give him a hug and a cuddle while he dozes. That to me is absolutely fine, it's his way of telling her he's uncomfortable. My eldest dog will bare his teeth at the puppy if he comes too close to his bone. That's fine too, that's my fault for allowing the puppy to approach ddog when he has a very high value treat.

Dogs are dogs and humans are humans. Some dogs have 'faults'. Dogs are generally trying hard to fit into human rules/routine and communication. I think we humans should try to understand our dogs a bit more. We humanise them too much and have high expectatations.

I have a whole reading list of material that I can post if you like?

Okay, cross posted but said the same things!

DOoin - I would MURDER if someone nicked my vodka.

OP please listen to the very sensible advice you have had here and get some professional help. Even if you do opt for a rehome you can send this dog that you allegedly care so much about to a new home with a behavioural program and enough information to minimise any risk of them repeating the behaviour. A snappy dog is not a happy dog, but you don't seem in the least bothered that your dog is stressed. Unfortunately your story is nothing new under the sun to any of us who work with dogs whether professionally or in a volunteer capacity and I've now lost patience.

You got away with your naivety and poor understanding of dog psychology, behaviour and body language because your older dog happened to be extremely tolerant. You and DH have already caused two injuries in your family through omission - by not taking the time to understand your dog and instead treating them like a big cuddly toy. You have a chance to take responsibility but seem intent on finding reasons not to.

My dogs have never bitten, not because they are not capable of it but because I respect their likes and dislikes and don't project my own preferences onto them. If I feel strongly about something (e.g. it's important to me that they are able to relax under a pub table for the duration of a Sunday lunch) I put effort into their training and behaviour mod to make sure they are comfortable with it. I do not expect them to be perfectly tolerant and adapted to my life and whims because they are sentient beings with emotions. I really really struggle to understand why people that have so little affinity with their animals have them in the first place.

I would echo a lot of what has been said above. Dogs don't all find what we enjoy enjoyable. Obviously some love social gatherings, children etc fun, others learn to deal and some find it stressful. Having a dog can't always be them slotting neatly into your life. You get them as a puppy when their personality has yet to form and you have to see how that develops. No one should be naive enough to totally trust a dog, not because they are inherently dangerous but because they are not human. We're not designed to read them 100% like they aren't designed to read us and mistakes happen.

Our own (very large) dog is naturally quite nervous. He's never shown any sign of aggression but, I feel, thus is because we have carefully managed the situation. The dc know what can and cannot be done. Guests are instructed how to behave (and if they fail to comply they don't return) the dog himself has been trained, he knows where he can go if it gets too much etc. He fits perfectly into our family - but only because we have adapted to his needs.

He's now 6 years old and all guests need to do is ignore him for a couple of minutes. Once he's had a sniff without them trying to pet him (therefore pressuring him) he's happy as larry! He only has to meet people once and they are accepted. It just took patience, consistency and good advice.

Once again I'm not saying you have to keep your dog, that's your decision, I'm just saying this doesn't, necessarily, mean the end of the road.

You can't trust a dog 100% - a previously placid dog when in pain may react differently. I also cannot trust children 100% either.

I have an easy going dog but I would never ever leave him with children unsupervised.

Its your responsibility to ensure that both dog and child are safe.

I have contacted a dog behaviourist and told the breeder to hold fire on finding new homes. We're on holiday in a couple of weeks, so we're going to give ourselves some space and time to think, and see what the behaviourist comes up with in the meantime.

Good luck Contraryish and well done on listening to the advise you were given instead of becoming defensive. I hope it goes well.

Good luck

Good luck to you, it's very hard not to get defensive. I wish you well (WHATEVER you decide) and enjoy your holiday

That sounds like a really sensible plan to me. I think you're doing the best thing for all concerned :)

Brilliant. Good luck.

Just to make sure it didn't get lost in the rest of the thread, do use an APBC registered one. It's not a regulated profession so there are a lot of dodgy folk out there marketing their services without proper training.

op your DH's bite sounds more like a 2 to me. Around the nose the skin is very thin and there is no fat padding, so even a small amount of pressure, or no pressure but the dog moving backwards, could cause bleeding. My puppy bit my nose by accident while playing, I had bleeding areas where her baby teeth caught the skin, yet it was a level one bite, in fact not even a nip as she was just doing that mad puppy biting play.