Going from two dogs to none ...

[Contraryish]

We currently have two dogs. One is an eleven year old, who is the kindest, gentlest beast. Everybody loves him, even self-confessed dog haters can see that he is a really good specimen. But he's poorly. After being fit and active his whole life, he's been diagnosed with liver damage and pancreatitis. He's on a cocktail of drugs and seems well in himself for the moment, but the long-term prognosis is not good.

Last year, as we knew no.1 dog was getting old and would not live forever, we got a new puppy. Also a lovely dog, albeit a bit more skittish, but he's young. We have put a year of love and hard work into him and come out at the end of it with a well-trained, beautiful, affectionate dog. The trouble is, on two occasions he has snapped and bitten. Once my son, now recently my husband. So we feel we have no choice but to find him a new home. If it were just me and my husband, we'd keep him, but we can't take the risk of him biting our children or their friends another time.

So it looks as if in the not-too-distant future we will be down from two dogs to none. My husband is adamant he does not want another as we cannot go through all this again. We are in bits. How are we going to cope?

Fear aggression is not "easily treatable". It's one of the biggest reasons physically healthy dogs are pts. I have a fear aggressive dog and it's a long, expensive and all encompassing business that takes huge amounts of time and effort. Not everyone has those resources.

OP, do what you have to do for your family. I do agree however that sometimes it's kinder to pts a dog yourself than give it an uncertain, miserable future when the end result is it getting pts anyway.

Well, if your dog came from a breeder, then any responsible breeder would have given you a written, lifetime commitment that they would take the dog back at ANY point in it's life. Or, they shouldn't have bred in the first place as they are not responsible breeders. It would kill the breeders of either of mine to think their carefully vetted homes wouldn't return their pups as the first option.

You would not be dumping them at a rescue centre and, with the greatest of respect, that will piss folk off on here. Rescue centres are best placed to find a suitable, thoroughly assessed, best match home for your dog. A breed specific centre, who will thoroughly assess your dog would be ideal if your breeder doesn't honour their own commitment.

The staff at rescue centres have years of experience and training. Honestly, by your comment you do not have that experience and don't seem too committed to working through your dogs issues, and I mean that kindly

I've had lots of fear aggressive/food aggressive dogs. It's one of my fortes.

You fit in the training with day to day life. Dedicating massive amounts of time to it will cause you stress and heartache, which the dog will pick up on, this will ultimately make training longer and harder.

OP's dog really doesn't seem to have much of an issue, other needing space. I, from what I have read, wouldn't even call it fear aggression. The dog has every right to be left alone if it wants to be, you shouldn't train it that it has to accept being fussed over at your every whim.

However as OP has children at least 1 session with a behviourist would be advisable. I am not in OPs home so cannot see the dog or asses the situation fully. I am confident that any training plan would simple and easy. This is not a dog with massive issues.

Contrary I think you've been given excellent advice on this thread.

Dogs do not bite without warning. I'm a vet and I also deal with behavioural cases (I agree that vets often lack behavioural knowledge, and I'm disappointed that your vet didn't take this more seriously), and I've never, ever dealt with a biting case which truly "gave no warning", even though the majority of owners use that phrase when they first come to me. After discussion and advice, sometimes with a behaviourist referral, owners realise that the warnings were there all along, they just weren't equipped with the skills to identify them.

This can possibly be easily rectified. If your dog is physically unwell, you take it to a vet rather than rehoming it. I'm constantly amazed by the frequency with which people want to rehome their emotionally troubled dogs rather than getting expert help.

Furthermore, the first step to addressing any behavioural problem is preventing recurrences. Because you have no idea why this happened (although there are definite clues in what you've said here, your dog needs a full clinical exam and a behaviour assessment) then any future home has no way of determining what situations make the dog uncomfortable. It will remain a bite risk, potentially biting again in the future, and the more times it resorts to this behaviour the more likely it is to repeat it again.

My favourite analogy here - if you have a car you know has a fault which might cause it to crash, you could either fix it, or sell it to someone willing to take the chance. If you do sell to that risk-taking friend, you'd never forgive yourself if they then got hurt, even though you warned them. I think most people would say get the problem sorted out yourself so you know it is safe.

Except we're talking about an emotional, sentient creature here who will possibly be further harmed by rehoming. Do the right thing and get yourself an APBC referral and let the experts advise you.

Struggling to keep up here!

The breeder has offered to take the dog back pending rehoming. I think that would cause more stress to the dog and would rather have him home.

I was told that rescue centres would not attempt to rehome a dog with a track record of biting. Or certainly that the RSPCA would not. Is that inaccurate information?

The RSPCA will pts, don't go near them with a barge pole.

Good re breeder, showing responsibility for her puppy.

Did your dog bite, or snap? That is what a good APDT behaviourist might work through with you

Good luck!!!

The RSPCA do not take dogs from the public anymore. The rest is correct. Your best bet would be a smaller rescue who work with foster homes and have their own behaviourists.

This really is not an insurmountable issue OP. You can help this dog in your own home.

I have heard from at least one smaller rescue that does foster their dogs out that they really can't take on a dog that the current owner has said has bitten - because of the worry about getting sued by any future potential owner and potentially having to close down as a result of damages - meaning lots of other dogs not being rescued by them year on year.

Bite or snap? I'm not sure how you tell the difference but it drew blood either way and there are clear teeth marks on either side of my husband's nose.

Thanks for all your help. One way or another, we will work this out.

A dog bite would require stitches at least. Don't forget those jaws are capable of grinding bone to dust. Had the dog wanted to cause serious damage, it would have done so.

I am concerned that you say your dog snap at your dh and dc but you are happy to rehome to someone without children?

I am not sure of your logic there.

With a small amount of effort and education on your behalf I expect that this could be managed within your own home. I am a qualified behaviourist and have never ever seen a dog bite for no reason. Once you know the reason and remove it no need for a dog to bite.

If you are rehoming then yes I would agree that you will and should stay a non dog household. All dogs require work and if this is a challenge then dog ownership is not for you.

Contrary, I just wanted to share my story with you. Our placid, peaceful and well behaved dog bit my dd in the face when she was 8. He was also lying down, not asleep. She did startle him and she went to hug him from behind and he snapped at her. She was hospitalized and plastic surgeon stitched her up etc. We got so much flack from family and friends as they all told us that he should be put down, as 'once a dog has bitten, they will do it again and again'. Of course we didn't put him down, he was part of the family and dd was partly to blame for approaching him from behind and placing her face near to his.

We never had another incident of him ever snapping at anyone after this isolated incident. BUT if visitors came over, there were rules. They could let him play with them, but they were never to touch his tail, go near his face etc etc.

Fast forward a few years, late last year we took him to the vet as he was off his food. I was asked to come in to see the vet after he was xrayed. The vet showed me his spine, and told me that he (at 6 years of age) had to worst arthiritis that she had ever seen in her years of practise. I looked at the xrays and looked for his name on them as I honestly believed that she had the wrong dog. It was true, but I couldn't believe my eyes. He ran around like a 6 yr old, never winced with pain. But his back end and his tail were the worst affected. In hindsight we now realize that the biting incident occurred in the winter when he was probably even in more pain.

He was a rescue dog, we got him when he was 6 months old and as he was undernourished as a young pup, his bones grew too fast once he got decent nutrition.

Sadly we lost him in March to kidney failure at 7 years old. I am still devastated.

Sorry I know this is long, but before you make a decision to rehome him, just get him checked out and see if there isn't something underlying. He cant tell you if he is sore. It is probably behavioural and some suggestions as above will help. You must enforce the rules today! No touching him when he is lying there, no face near his face etc.

What breed is he? AM I correct in that you have two male dogs currently? Could this not be a dominance thing maybe?

Good luck. On your posts I can feel that you are not taking this decision lightly.

Thanks muttynutty. I know dog ownership is a challenge. Being a parent is one too. I had dogs before children but unfortunately the children must always come first.

I wasn't suggesting that he only bits children and that would be why he should be in an environment without children. More that adults are better able to manage these things and have more time on there hands to do so.

I believe you're right, too, that it could be managed within the home. But he is a family pet and comes everywhere with us. What if that fraction of a second we happen to take our eyes off him is when he turns round and snaps at a toddler who looms into his face? Could we forgive ourselves?

I second double-checking that the dog wasn't in any pain when he snapped. Our nearly-8-year-old Lab growls when we dry her back legs (around the hip area) and we mentioned it to our vet when she had her annual health check/jabs. Turns out she has hip dysplacia on that particular side! We are always more careful with her now and she doesn't get to run off of the lead as much, but it's good to know and DD (5) now knows not to touch her back or back legs.

murphys, sorry for your loss.

We do have two male dogs, yes. But the older dog is as soft as anything and both dogs are neutered, so I don't think it's a dominance thing.

He's a new-fangled cross-breed, which, I guess, means people will tell me we should have known he would be unpredictable in terms of temperament.

These threads frustrate me....
None of us can diagnose the issue on the internet.
You need to get professional advice from a qualified behaviourist to look at the situation.

Generally if the triggers are removed from the situation the dog will not need to bite and there will be no risk. So your worrying about what ifs will not and need not happen.

Get the proper advice from the professionals please.

APBC or APDT

It is DEFINITELY NOT a dominance thing

this is a really good resource explaining level of dog bites

Muttynutty, I never actually asked for a diagnosis, I think people are just trying to be helpful!

Thanks for all the advice!

It seems there's a big difference between a Lvl 3 and a Lvl 4 bites. So knowing which level it was is important.

Muzzle the dog if you are out and about and worried that you can't supervise fully?

Honestly, as most have said, probably the best way forward is to get in a behaviourist, who must be qualified and belong to the above groups. And check your insurance, which may cover.

Viva, I'd say 3. Can't be sure how deep but no bruising.

Just coming back to this to say I think the OP has made up her mind. Although you say it's breaking your heart, OP, you've been given bags and bags of advice from people with more experience and knowledge than you, some of us professionals. And you are responding to that advice with "but ..." and "what if ...?"

I know you didn't come for advice about the biting but it's a clear cut situation and you've been told what to doin to it. It is clear to me that you don't want to keep this dog and aren't interested in making an effort to resolve this problem.

That's fine and your prerogative, but I'd like to add my voice in agreeing that you shouldn't get another dog. Any dog is a bite risk and I don't think at the moment it would be fair on a dog for you to take it on. If your expectations change then maybe, but right now you're not interested in mitigating factors, explanations and avoidance strategies, so don't bring a dog into the mix again.

Tbf, in the ops position, I'd be asking a lot of what ifs and finding a lot of buts. Dealing with a dog who has bitten is a nerve wracking affair and we all want to know we have our bases covered especially when children are involved. To me the op seems intelligent and genuinely upset by the situation. I hope she does get a behaviourist involved as I see that as an owners job not the job of the new home/rescue but people do need to accept not everyone makes the same decision they would when circumstances are difficult.