Where the Wild Things Are

[barbarianoftheuniverse]

I have an eight month old Border Collie called Meg. She is far from perfect (and so am I).
Today she has been about 60/40 good. The 40 included chewing up my camera memory card which DH is sure he put safely on the mantelpiece. Every time I look down at this screen she takes a quick munch of the coffee table with her eyes on mine. This despite a 2 hour walk which included much in and out of streams.

Moose and Basil would really like to know how you teach 'down' like that with the paper, if either of you have time.

Blimey Fan, you make BTs sound like most of our friends!

Barbarian, I'm going to let Basil tell you ... and then I can copy her!

ahh then you need a BT in your life at some point moose!

Hi barbarian - we started by getting him to target the paper with his front feet - we used a paper plate to start with as it was a bit sturdier then moved onto a post-it note

We encouraged him to be interested in it and as soon as he touched it with his feet clicked and treated

when he realised what we wanted him to do we added the cue word 'feet'

Then we started moving it around and getting him to touch it as soon as it stopped

Then we added a down so 'feet, down'

Still moving it around and keeping the energy levels really high, then phasing out the feet but keeping the down really exciting

The targeting can be used for all kinds of things later - the trainer's collie does a very impressive jump and push off from the wall which started off with him targeting

Funnily enough, we always said we'd get a BT when we were left with just Lurcherboy, but when the time came I just knew we had to get another Lurcher.

I'm a great believer in fate and knew Pip was my boy from the second I saw a photo of him at just a few weeks old on his rescue's website. He looked such an odd little fella - dh said he wasn't drawn to him because he had an odd face - but I knew.

It wasn't easy, we were going away on holiday right when he was old enough to leave his fosterers and we were turned down as a result. But, fate intervened and someone I know on a Lurcher rescue site, knew his fosterers, knew I was looking for a pup and asked if I'd seen him. I explained I'd applied and been turned down and she was really cross that they'd turned down an experienced dog and in particular Lurcher home. She told the fosterers all about me and they in turn went into battle with the rescue society and told them they wanted me to have him.

The rescue still wouldn't commit, but said we could go and meet him on our way to our holiday home, as we were driving practically past the fosterer's house anyway, but this didn't mean we would be able to adopt him, as they have a blanket policy of not allowing people to reserve dogs while they go on holiday and if someone else turned up in the two weeks we were away they would get preference.

We went to visit him on the way out and it was love at first sight. He was so frail and sweet. I felt sick thinking someone else might adopt him while we were away, but as we left the fosterer said "He's yours, no questions asked. We'll see you in two weeks when you come to take him home." She then text me while I was on the ferry to tell me she'd spoken to the rescue society and they had finally agreed to formally reserve him for us. I have never wanted a holiday to end more quickly in my life!

A BT is still high on our list of must have breeds. A friend at the dcs' school has three that do agility and are absolute sweeties.

I haven't taught Pip to target with his feet yet, but he does a really good target with his nose, which is so useful when you want to lead him somewhere or guide him through a narrow gap etc.

I think we have said before that they are natural bed fellows to be honest. Dh wanted a grey or lurcher but ds's dog allergy put paid to that as he reacted.

I know a few round here with a small pack of lurchers with a terrier tagged on!

Yes we have. I could really see Lurcherboy with a little BT best buddy - but the timing was off, Pip needed me.

The Lurcher, Terrier combo is very common, they compliment each other's hunting skills, so lots of people that 'work' their dogs have both.

Interesting training talk today, we have the boys 'touching' my hand, and Harry will paw his ball, but I need to up the game. Getting Hector has meant I am only really reinforcing the basic commands with Harry, as it's hard to train both together.

I think that I am a spaniel person through and through, although I hanker after a pointer breed, as I think they are so graceful when running. DH thinks they are too big though, and I do see his point. The traits of the spaniel just suit us well.

That said, whether I would always want a full on dog is debatable, I can cope with a retired greyhound in my dotage too.

Rare peace in the house, DH is out with the dogs

That's a lovely story Moose - lucky Pip and lucky you all!

BB that's fab - clicker training is fantastic, I must try that.

I have steam coming out my ears - mind if I rant? DH just walked minty in the woods and came back saying he's really badly behaved shouldn't be off lead and has no discipline. Turned out they saw our babysitter on bike, said hello and then minty gave chase (without babysitter realising) through a stream and over a road. DH called but 100yds behind and minty zoomed across the road himself.

I can't believe minty gets the blame. Of course he's going to run after babysitter whom he adores especially on a bike. I'd have clipped lead on for the hello and pottered along till bike wel out of sight.

As I say I'm steaming. I think DH just doesn't get the difference between a pup now teenager and his last dog which was an elderly GSD who would politely dawdle to work with him each day then sleep at his feet all day. Well perhaps minty will be like that at 10yrs plus but right now he needs us to mind him properly. Someone could have been killed - I know the road and all traffic is at 30 plus with poor visibility. Rant over - I'm off to tidy a sock drawer!

Oh dear mint, did you say anything to DH? My DH can bit a bit old fashioned at time, thinks 'a stern no' should be understood, and less inclined the embrace the new training methods like clicker training etc. Hope the sock drawer is theraputic, I generally pair socks from the ironing pile

I start agility with Harry next week, I am quite excited!

Mint - bit early, but sounds like you need it. Glad Minty was OK and came back in the end, but it sounds like your dh needs to recognise that it can't just be you doing the training if he wants Minty to respond to him as well.

I've spent the last hour whiling away the time waiting for the party dd was at to end looking at property porn. I've found a fantastic house, just up the road from us, 5 beds, enormous kitchen, two gigantic sitting rooms plus an orangery type room that's in a suntrap, 2.5 acre gardens with massive lawns plus loads of beautiful mature trees and access directly onto open countryside walks, plus a 2 bedroom cottage set back from the house that would be the perfect solution to where ds1 is going to live when he's older. All I need to do now is win the lottery (preferably Euromillions) as its £1,950,000 ... and it needs renovating!

Love the property porn Moose, great way of spending a few spare moments!

DH was aware of my views about minty running off and I had a great stomp through eldest sons entire wardrobe - first time been cleared out in about 2 yrs! I came down to DH saying he realised it was his fault. Think he was a bit shocked and defensive when he'd first got home. Thankfully it was a lesson learnt without any damage.

Our change in food is going well - no problems after day 2 so going to increase the proportion of the new - been 75%old 25% new so gradually will swap that. Minty needs to put on weight as he's underweight according to trainer - hard to get it right though.

Glad to hear Minty came to no harm despite the ordeal. I'm with you, any distraction at all and I try to set him up for success!

With regard to him being underweight, how old is he now? I only ask because even people who should know sometimes forget that pups aren't like adults in terms of build. I have worried myself to distraction at times as was faced with a skinny pup with a really dicky tummy who can go days quite happily walking away from all offerings. This is how I ended up raw feeding...an I'll try anything moment! It did crack the dicky tummy! But a year on it is only now at 19 months that he is finally starting to fill out and I think it is just an age thing. I think he will always be lean but tbh I think that is better. It could just be his age yet.

I don't get the food / underweight think Fan.

We were feeding the correct amount of Science Plan Puppy according to his weight. So we weighed each week and increased till he was on 550g a day - quite a big plastic tub worth.

But he is ribby and lean but checked with vet who said he had good muscle tone, daily walks were fine and she said food was fine so it was just a matter of time. But then I looked at Ingred of Science Plan, listened to people on here and decided it was better to go for good quality kibble and he'll either put on weight or I'll at least feel happy that washe is eating is good stuff.

Where does the phrase puppy-fat comes from if puppies aren't a bit chunky? I've never had a puppy before but had a whippet/collie x in past who was beautifully lean so I think you're right dogs are meant to be lean.

Our whippet/collie x did that thing of leaving food for a day but he seemed happy - like he was imposing a 5:2 fast diet on himself!

I'm off for a Christmas-present spa day with my SIL today so have cooked 4 sausages for DHs walk with minty today. I noticed after yesterday's disaster that the sausage treat bag that I'd given DH was barely touched in walk. No wonder minty didn't bother listening to him. So no chances today - loads more sausage than I usually take and DH knows to use it frequently!

Out of interest how many treats/sausages/ cheese chunks do people take on off lead walks with their dogs? I have been used to cooking 1 sausage each morning and cutting up & mixing with bits of biscuit so I have a bag that is a fist sized and we get through whole thing over 40 mins off lead.

Do others use more? More variety?

I don't use much as Finn isn't food orientated on walks but I do have a few dried sprats in my pocket. He might deign to nibble at one if not distracted but otherwise its lots of excited sounding praise, I sound like a demented loon most walks.

I have to be careful as raw seems to be the only thing that doesn't give the runs and I draw the line at a pocket full of raw meat! I use cheap and nasty gravy bones as they seem to be as addictive as narcotics to the 100 mile an hour dog...more than cheese or chicken. Maybe get through half a dozen broken into pieces. More would be better but I have to balance it with not making him ill. A couple of pieces of sausage is enough for alot of mess here!

Dried liver? I also buy the beef jerky from Natural instincts which Finn does like but even that doesn't get his attention on a walk weird beast!

I have got some dried liver and he'll eat it but not go nuts for it. Also, his raw has offal ratios in already so again, a little is okay but I wouldn't want to give too much.

I have gut problems...cannot believe we have managed to find a dog just like me

Like Finn, Fitz is not particularly food-oriented on walks as there are too many other Really Exciting things happening and hot dog can't compete! He will do anything for a squeaky ball though so I always make sure I have a couple hidden away somewhere

For training at home and puppy class we use a mixture of chicken, ham, cheese, primula, hot dog etc

Mint, little pups - so from newborn to 8-12 weeks tend to be little pudges, then they lean out as they grow. When their testosterone kicks in they tend to go skinny and gangly, a bit like spotty great human teenagers really.

In my experience they tend to fill out a little, then suddenly drop weight and go skinny as they have a growth spurt. Then as they start to develop an adult shape and size their muscles build and they loose the half-starved look.

Dogs are meant to be lean, you should be able to clearly see their waist from above and their ribcage should have a lean covering. The vast majority of dogs these days are overweight and it's what's been implicated in all sorts of health problems from hip and elbow dysplasia to diabetes and some cancers.

The guide for a healthy Lurcher is that you should be able to see the last three ribcages. Pip is extremely thin, but fits that description. Lurcherboy has put on too much weight recently (2kg! ) mainly due to less off-lead exercise while dh was walking him and is now on a diet as a result.

Your Whippet x Collie was a Lurcher! Lurcher = any sighthound x any working breed or terrier.

Re treats, I have 2 x fist sized bags with me, for two dogs, plus a couple of catfood trays in case I want to jackpot recalls. I usually get through one bag on an average walk, maybe with just a few bits left - but - if it's a busy walk with lots of other dogs, I can get through two whilst shoving treats down Pip's neck for counter-conditioning purposes.

I use, fresh cooked chicken, chorizo, cheese, primula, fish4dogs stars, kibble and catfood trays. I've just bought some chorizo cocktail sausages and for some reason my two go nuts over those, far more than proper chorizo. The best puppy-crack training treat I've ever used was Morrison's turkey sausages. They were really greasy and smelly and worked like a charm, but they don't seem to sell them down here.

Not all dogs are food orientated though and for those dogs I'd get them hooked on 3 A, B, C graded toy rewards that they only get as a reward for training/good responses.

Lurcherboy is food oriented, but tennis balls trump everything else on the planet, so I can use both with him. For Oldgirl, who was a total glutton, her frisbee still overrode food when out on walks.

What do I do moose...mine isn't motivated by food or toys for distractions from dogs or people. His favourite toy at home witheld and saved for this purpose held no value whatsoever in face of a playmate

I really do need a puppy in my pocket don't I? Gravy bones will cut the mustard when on lead but debatable off...he weighs it up!

You probably need to work A LOT on getting and keeping his attention at home, making the game with his favourite toy mega exciting as reward. Then you'd need to, extremely gradually, increase the distraction level. So first of all perhaps just someone else in the room, then the other person being busy, then doing something he really likes to be involved with etc, building up the distraction incrementally.

To do it well you'd need reach a point where you start to involve friends with stooge dogs and get them working with you inside at home, then in the garden and go from there.

Ultimately he needs to have it so ingrained in his head that when you give him his attention or recall cue, what you have on offer is worth leaving the other people/dogs alone for.

Ideally you should have more than one favourite toy. His absolute best should be reserved for 'ultimate reward' (A grade) then there should be one a step down from it (B grade) and another that's rewarding but not as desirable as the other two (C grade).

It's a very long, slow process to do it right.

I do understand what a massive undertaking it is with a high energy, highly sociable dog and whilst it can be done, I'm not saying I would be up to doing it, just because I know how to do some of this stuff, doesn't mean I have the stamina to actually see it through myself.

I'm thinking I have no choice but to buy Pip one of these.