please help.....which breed?

[absentmindeddooooodles]

ok, i'll try to keep this as short as possible.

we have a 10 month old german shepard bitch. She is a total handful, but we have been and still are very dedicated to helping her to settle down and really be a part of the family.

She will not go to the toilet outside. always all over the kitchen and its too much for me with a toddler. She wont sit still for a second. Jumps up, nips and is generally crazy. We have tried everything. She gets alot of company and excersise aswell as fun and downtime. We have hired a professional trainer and he made little progress.

With his help we observed her, at home and out on walks. She is quite confrontational with big dogs, but with smaller breeds she becomes this wonderful happy playful little thing. She follows them, plays beautifully and does not try to dominate the situation.

The dog trainer suggested we get a small dog to keep her company and help teach her the basics at home. His theory on this was that she would eventually follow the other dogs example and start to go outside/not eat every kitchen appliance etc.

We would get a rescue dog. A little older. Already been trained, but that has been around other dogs and children. ( i realise there will always be more work to do with any other dog we get, and am prepared for this) Both dp and i have always had dogs and never had such a problem with one before.

She has chewed through 2 tumble driers, a ( wooden) backdoor. & 7 cupboard fronts, 2 door frames, every bit of skirting in the kitchen....aswell as more clothes shoes and toys than i could count. Before anyone thinks tat she must be left too long to do this, im a sahm. shes never left on her own for more than 3 hours, and that is not very often at all.

Anyway.....the reason i posted.....what kind of breed should i be researching? The dog would need to get on with a bigger breed, and be ok with a toddler ( who is very good with animals, but obvs you can never be too careful) We have a love;y set up for a dog ( watertight kennels and yard soley for dogs. nice garden, park across the road etc) so am confident that this could help all round :) We always planned on getting another dog anyway, as when i go back to work in a couple of years ( part time) we'd like her to have some company.

Any advice would be fab. At my wits end here.

im so sorry, that really was not as short as id hoped :/

Border Terrier! I have a 14 month old BT and he is ace. I wouldn't exactly say he was perfect manners but he makes up for that in general awesomeness . He is still a little sod for junping up but never nips

He hasn't been crated since 6 months, has never chewed and was house trained at 12 weeks though I'm not sure another dog can teach that! Funnily ebough one of his best doggy friends is a 5 month old GSD who he loves a rolling wrestle with!

He adores big dogs and to be honest they handle his dog enthusiasm better.

I meant to add though that 10 months is still very young and I can see mine maturing and changing all the time. I'm not sure that I personally think adding another dog to the mix now would be easy. I'd concentrate on one. 10 months isn't an adult dog and won't behave as such iyswim.

BUT...when the time is right, definitely get a Border .

thankyou :) i know it wouldnt be a miracle cure for her, and shes still very young. tbh, i dont mind the jumping and craziness along with alot of chewing....i expected that! would just like her to be.....well to bloody well go to the toilet outside the house, and just to calm ever so slightly.

the only reason i personally think adding another one is that i see her change so much when shes with other dogs. She loves the company and i can see her enjoying herself so much!

we would be getting aother within the year so it had time to settle before i go to work etc, so maybe i will hold off for a while.

you dog sounds lovely :) and ive just looked at pics on google, very cute!

sounds like a lovely breed so ill look into it.

thanks again :)

Mine is a good mix of calm (at home...mostly apart from the odd play fight) and loopy out playing with his doggy mates. But they are lovely and would easily keep up with your gsd.

I keep mine slightly longer haired around the face than most are (pics on profile) and we used to tell ds that he would be a gsd when he grows up. He looks like a mini version of the pup he plays with!

I appreciate that my post won't be what you want to hear but I strongly suggest you don't get another dog yet. I'd be seeking alternative professional advice.

I agree with peanut ,I think you need to sort out your problems with this dog before you consider getting another . TBH you are just as likely to end up with 2 dogs crapping in and eating your kitchen . Go back to basics with house training for a start because unless your dog has a medical issue she should get it quite quickly.

appreciate the comments everyone. i would not really have entertained the idea if it were not for the trainers suggestion. Our vet also recommended this as our dog was bought up in a house full of westies and thats obviously what she was used too. Hence the good reacyion to them etc.

ive gone back to basics with training. this is the 3rd person we have paid to try and do something ( all consistent, no mixed messages) Had her vet checked 4 times now......no medical issues. Shes just so so disobedient! Apart from when our friends come over with their cocker spaniel.....then she sits nicely....does not bite or flip out.

Just running out of ideas tbh.

We got a second dog to help our first dog. Our first dog was only little though. It worked a treat, he stopped being so miserable (and eating our house) when he was left alone and became much more confident on walks.

okay.....first things first - have you tried crating her at night/when you arent there to stop her chewing/weeing? i would crate and give her a kong filled with treats for boredom.

i am getting a GSD male at the end of the month - i have a cavalier king charles spaniel already.
they are the pefect dog - easy to train, small, no reports of anyone ever getting bitten to death by a cav.....ive had 2.

my first cav was calmed down by my second cav who was a rescue.
she was so easy to sort out - she was 6m old and not house trained - i did it in a day.

im hoping she will enjoy a bit of company when i get the pup at the end of the month.....dont be putting me off GSDs - i am ready for him being a handful! i have puppy classes lined up, and lots and lots of socialising for him.....

Hi, can I ask what background your behaviourists so far have come from? We use Jan Fennell's Dog Listener technique and so far (touch wood) it hasn't let us down. Fouling indoors at the age your dog is, is not good, neither is the destruction, but I don't THINK getting another dog is the way ahead, it's more about resetting your dog's mindset about where it fits in, in your family.

Nothing is going to be an easy fix, I keep saying to new clients, a new puppy needs a length of time equivalent to Maternity Leave!

Hello Vicar! How's things?

waves back! things are good thanks for asking! im getting a GSD pup on 25th Oct! he is a little cutie. long coat. beautiful. i have puppy classes lined up already for socialisation and basic obedience! and a very very big crate for when im not home! (which is not often - when im not there DH is)
so far so good!

tried the crating for weeks and weeks......not once did she go in there without going into destruction mode and screaming like she was being attacked. Tried everything with it and we had to give up after 6 weeks as it was too much for my ds to always be woken up. Im not tryi g it again. We tried it again with our first trainer and she also agreed that this was not for her.
She is mostly in with me, I dont go out for long stretches of time for other reasons, so she hasd maybe 3 hours a week to get bored. Its at night she destroys everything.
My dp has had gsd before. Beautiful animals. The most loving, kind dogs you could ever own...........just not this particular one right nw.
?All of the trainers we have worked with have been vet recomended and specialise in gsd only. They all seemed to be using the same techniques, but i couldnt for the life of me tell you what it was called. Dp did most of the bits like that as i have been ill.
I just dont understand why nothing is working with this one......we have both had dogs or entire lives, and never come across anything like her. She will not do as she is told ever. Apart from on walks with other dogs. Her recall is fab. I go over to the field and let her run around, she will come straight back, but the second we are back on that lead, thats it.
She has pulled me and ds over infront of a moving car, pushed him over countless times, broken a new tv as she just had to try and jump over it, ruined every wall, carpet and piece of firniture.

We have literally tried everything. I know that getting another dog may not be the miracle cure, but i dont see how much longer we can try for. We got a gsd because thet ae so trainable and good with kids........its getting silly now. It may be a last resort.

will have a look through all paperwork from trainers and see what techniques were used, if not the same one ill have a look. thankyou!

Can I make a few points?

Firstly, it's no good having someone come to train her. I encounter this idea lots but it doesn't work! You need someone to come and identify the problem and then teach you how to handle it. If the trainers you've used so far haven't made much progress then either they are not good trainers or they have not conveyed to you how much input you need to provide.

Secondly, you can't (easily) train a dog out of destructive excitable behaviour without identifying the underlying cause. A dog exhibiting the sorts of behaviours you describe is likely to be under stimulated, regardless of the amount of stimulation you are already providing she probably needs more.

Thirdly, I am unfailingly suspicious of trainers who specialise in one breed. Dogs are dogs. They may have breed tendencies, but any trainer worth their salt can recognise and deal with these, and in essence their motivations, way of learning and view of the world are similar whether they're a chihuahua or a malamute.

I would counsel against getting another dog right now. I think you need to call in help, either from an APDT trainer or an APBC counsellor. I think you need to go back to square one as if your dog is 8 weeks old. But I think the most critical thing is that you need to be the one who does the training. You can't buy the behaviour you want, you need to spend huge amounts of time and effort to achieve that. It's not impossible but it will be a challenge. Good luck :)

Oh and for the love of doG stay well away from Jan Fennell and her crazy cracker eating nonsense, her ideas went out with the ark

If you get another dog you could have 2 of them pooing and peeing in the house as new dog could follow example of your GSD.
We recently got an 8 month old rescue GSD and he taught our previously calm well trained 3 yr old lab some bad habits - barking at passers by, shredding paper and books left lying around etc. So for a while it was like having two puppies. Back on track now after upping the training but we have to keep at it.
Weird advice from your trainers IMHO, never heard of that before. I really can't see how getting another dog would help.

absentminded IMO and E some dogs are allergic to wheat it maybe an idea to try just giving veg and meat and see how she responds.

Ah ok great idea ill tey with the meat and veg. We are on vet recommended food with no additives etc, but maybe this will help :)

The trainers are all local, so they spent alot of time with our family. The last time I couldnt be as much a part of it as I was ill, but the previous times we worked very closely, and we were taught what to do every stwp of the way.

The reason we went for breed specific, is, firstly they came so highly recommended, and secondly it was what the vet suggested as he has seen good results with his own and xustomers dogs.

I dont see how she could possibly need any more stimulation though. I cant take her for any more walks, as its not recommended for the breed. If I physically spend any more time at home I will never leave the house, and ds needs to be out and about. She has toys, outdoor space and company. Meets and plays with other dogs and goes on interesting walks to the woods and beach. She gets more attention than the bloody toddler atm! Im sorry but if a dog needs more than that then id be very very suprised. Its at night she wreks the place anyway. I already stay up as late as possible so she does not have to be in the kitchen for hours. She gets put to bed at midnight ish, and im up before 6 everyday. I cant do better than that. Ds still wakes in the night so I need some sleep.

Ive phoned the rspca foor advice, and they recommended the trainer we have already used. Grrrrr!

We are back to basics. Fully. She cant even grasp that and never has. We have had one night when there has been no mess in the kitchen. Just one. She knows she has done wrong when I go down in the morning or throught the day as she lies down, and the ears go flat. We point it out to her blah blah blah and do everything we have been taught. We are so consistent. Still nothing.

Like ive said, I expect some of it. Chewing, jumping and generally being exciteable.......but ive never come across a dog that wont even begin to grasp basic training concepts. She wont ever wver sit down with us.Constantly jumping over all of us and the furniture and shes so big now that its all gwtting too much.

I do realise that another dog may just learn her bad habits. Im speaking to some rehoming ventres for advice today so will see what they say.

Thanks for the commwnts and advice all.

She doesn't know she's done wrong. She's showing appeasement, because she can tell from your body language that you will react. Pointing it out to her will be completely counterproductive.

I reiterate that you need proper help with basics. Have you found an APDT or APBC trainer?

I am happy to give you suggestions for house training and providing mental stimulation. I would also encourage you to consider the crate again, although you will need to teach her about it from scratch. That is pretty easy though, with patience and cunning :)

She may get withdrawal symptoms but you can give her some thing tasty like small pieces of fresh [or gently cooked turkey,beef or whatever). Also watch her chews (there's wheat in nearly everything we buy )

This is a good guide for going back to basics toilet training

Are you using dog trainers or dog behaviourists? I know of people change to raw diet and the behaviour change in their dog is incredible, 10 months is still young though it took my mums Airedale nearly 3 years to behave like a 'normal' dog and not like a puppy, altho he never peed indoors.

Hi there, you sound like a lovely considerate dog owner....

We have a boxer with a cairn/corgi cross companion. It works well - though I will be honest and say I think it was time that calmed my boxer lady now! she is now in the twilight of her years and it is hard to marry her with the destructive, hyper lunatic of a puppy we lived with for 2 years!

Her favorite trick - eating reading glasses or a nice bag of flour!!