New Puppy Mummies Part 2

[SallyBear]

Just thought I'd start the new thread!

Toby (foxy coloured yellow Labrador) is now 13 weeks old. Long, lean and lanky. Still wonderfully tempered and is sleeping through and no longer messing in the house.

Nala is great at night sleeps all evening I have to wake her or dinner and to go out. Mornings are crazy though.

So glad to hear it gets better

Nala will sit unprompted and give paws constantly, she's such a gannet, thinks if I sit here I might get food

I've agreed with the DCs and DP no other DCs in the house until Nala is better behaved and not nipping. I cannot bear the thought of her biting a child and them going home screaming to their parents. I'm not prepared to crate her whilst they are in the house or gardenias not fair in her and cannot supervise her as she's so fast and the kids wind her up anyway.

Everlong, what Sally said, plus go back to basics with a super tasty, high-reward treat, then put him on an intermittent reward schedule so he never knows if he'll even get a treat or if he does how good it will be. Works like a one-armed bandit, it's the constant hope of winning big that makes you keep feeding your coins in. If everyone won a decent reward every time they played there wouldn't be any point and it certainly wouldn't be as addictive.

There is a Kikopup video about fading the lure somewhere, that might help.

Mint, do you think he might just be getting overtired and manic, like toddlers do when they know they need to sleep but don't want to? It might be worth seeing if he'll go down for a nap - sorry, am tired and can't remember if you are using a crate.

If not, an evening walk may help as it's all so stimulating when they're this age that it's likely to exhaust him mentally, even if not physically.

Wish me luck folks, Pip is asleep in his crate ... in the kitchen. He has had several hour long naps in there today with me in another room out of sight, so fingers crossed he will sleep ok in there tonight. Neighbours are still away, so the worst that can happen is he wakes me, dh and dd (our rooms are above the kitchen).

Wa-hey! This morning for the first time I got woken up by the alarm clock rather than puppy whimpers (well actually I got woken up by one of the cats purring very loudly in my ear but that's not Fitz's fault!). Went down at 6:30 and he was just about awake but still all snuggled up

This morning I've been doing lots of work on ’off' and 'leave' so fingers crossed that starts to bear fruit

Hope Pip slept ok moose

Well done to Fitz! You feel you've turned a corner when that happens.

We had a loud wake up bark at 1am - needed a poo! My mistake - I gave him a final meal at 10pm as he seemed so hyper, ravenous and a bit agitated. The food calmed him. Going to weigh him and increase meal amounts - how often are people weighing/increasing kibble?

Thanks Moose - I hope Pip settled well in her new room!? We aren't using a crate but put Zebo behind the stair gate in the kitchen - but getting him in can be hard when he's going ballistic. I think getting into a routine of a 9pm walk (we want him to settle for night at 10pm) after his final meal might be good now.

BB - how are you increasing the off and leave commands?

I have taught 'off' with a treat in my hand and now Zebo will get excited about the treat, I'll say OFF about 3 times, then he drops his nose away but stares at the treat, really concentrating for 10 secs. When I've tried longer wait times or when I've tried the treat being on my open palm, it goes too fast and he grabs the treat! Not sure how to increase this skill.

Thanks moosemamma and sallybear for the advice in the gates, i think i will remove them.

those of you who are looking for a "Leave it" and "take it" tip, what worked for us was for me and dd 3yo to sit on the floor with a huge bag of watsits, eating some, but throwing one at a time on the floor around where we were sat, increasing to nearer henrydog with a leave it comand. some of which i slowly picked up, others i left. when he did as he was told he got a puppy treat. (he was 15 weeks when i got him and started to work straight away on him).

ok, soooo i thought i had a reasonably well balanced dog, as hes nicely behaved, walks ok on lead, good at recall, walks to heel not wandering more than 15ft when off lead, doing ok arround other dogs....until yesterday, we had the walk from hell!!!! diplodocus i have been doing the same as you, sitting in random places where he feels nervous, just sitting and chilling with him, yesterday i decided to walk him through our small town. he hated it, trying to bolt, shaking like a leaf, slobbering. So i walked to the petshop with him and ordered a muzzle. I keep thinking that isnt how i want my 23 week old pup to be, muzzled, yet im just very aware that when we are approaching strangers his heckles go up and he is very focused on them, if a stranger to stroke him its touch n go if he is going to turn and nip them. My thoughts behind the muzzle were so that while he is still young i can correct his behaviour and feel safer knowing that there cant be an accident. as he seems to hate it when somebody who he doesnt know decides that they want to pat him on the head, he prefers to sniff their hand out in front of him they want to approach him first.

I sense ive alot of work to do on him, which isnt a problem, i just didnt know he was so timid around new things, and places, as we rarely do the same walk 2 days in a row.

we weigh him fourtnightly and adjust his feed accordingly, as he has put on 15kg in the 8-10 weeks that we have had him. (I think that he was massivley underfed when we got him, at 15 weeks old he was 6kg, and as his mum was a cross rottie and he has huge paws, there is no way he was ever going to be a small dog)

Hi met. I wonder its because he's almost got sensory overload? Maybe try one thing at a time. Road noises - try a bridge where he can see the cars but he's safe and won't bolt. People. Try a place where there's a steady flow of foot traffic but where you're unlikely to get people stopping - train station maybe. Then try and amalgamate the two by sitting in Tesco's carpark on a bench. Just sitting. Lots of treats and praise for being a good quiet boy. You may want to put a yellow jacket on him so that people will walk past and leave him be.

Mintchoc, if you are having to say the cue word more than once to get a response you need to go back to basics and only add the cue in once he's 99.9% reliable. Otherwise you're reinforcing him choosing when to respond to you.

I taught off by throwing a treat on the floor away from whatever I wanted him to get off and fading that into a hand signal, then adding the cue once he was responding to the hand signal.

It sounds like you need to be fading the lure earlier, as your pups are smart enough to know there's no point unless they're going to get a treat, but need to realise that they might get a treat anyway, even if there's not one in your hand.

If you watch Kikopup, she doesn't hold a treat unless luring, which is only for some exercise and only right at the beginning. She wears a treat pouch, clicks ... then gets the treat out and gives it to the dog. You are wanting the dog to work for you, not the treat or the clicker, so they shouldn't be staring at the treat or the clicker, but focussing on you and what you're communicating. You can help this along by doing the exercise where you only click and treat for eye contact. They can't get a treat by looking anywhere else, so you're building focus and attention. Then you need to be consistent and insist they are focussing on you, not the treat for every exercise before they get a treat. Start of with a lure if necessary, but quickly fade to a hand signal and then start asking for eye contact before click treating.

and

Meti, if I were you, I would take professional advice at this point. I understand you are concerned that he might nip, but muzzling a pup could cause more problems, as it will prevent him from feeling he can escape from the scary situation and possibly escalate his fear and aggression. The best thing to do is go back a few steps and revert to taking him to quieter places for a while, gradually building up to busy places.

If he is fearful and pulls away, let him, he should be allowed to put as much space as possible between him and whatever he's scared of, then you can reward him for being calm and interested and you will be able to gradually decrease the distance. If he can't handle being petted by people, you are going to have to be firm, explain that he is a rescue that is scared of people and ask them to toss him a treat without making eye contact instead. That way he will gradually learn that people are a positive thing, rather than a thread. Allowing people to touch him when he's fearful is going to build his anxiety and that's what could lead to a nip. Also, patting a dog on the head is something they all hate, but many tolerate. Ask people to approach from the side, no direct eye contact and stroke his shoulder or chest instead - it's far less threatening.

As I said though, get professional help now. I have had a large breed fear aggressive dog myself and if you don't nip it in the bud it can be very hard to fix. He's young though and there's every reason to think you can get him over this problem.

Bear in mind too that he is around the age where pups go through a major fear period, many/most dogs will suddenly start being fearful of things they used to be ok with at around that age and you need to handle it properly to make sure you're not reinforcing the fearfulness.

I found the following passage about the second fear imprint stage and it explains it pretty well:

"Second Fear Imprint Period (6 - 14 Months) The Second Fear Imprint Period is similar to the one that occurred during the socialization period, but, it is much less defined. It occurs as dogs enter adolescence and seems more common in males. It is often referred to as adolescent shyness. Your dog may suddenly become reluctant to approach something new or suddenly become afraid of something familiar. This behavior can be very frustrating to the owner and difficult to understand because its onset is so sudden and, seemingly, unprovoked. If you notice this behavior, it is important to avoid the two extremes in response: Don't force him to do or approach something frightening to him and don't coddle or baby him. To get through situations that make your dog fearful, be patient, kind, and understanding. Desensitize him to the object or situation by gradually introducing him to it and using food rewards and praise to entice him to confront the fearful object or situation. Do not coddle or reassure him in any way that will encourage his fearful behavior. Do not correct him either. Simply make light of it and encourage him give him food rewards as he begins to deal with his fear better. Make sure you lavishly praise his attempts! This phase will pass."

Some info on developmental stages and fear imprint periods here.

If you do want to get some professional help, try to find someone who is APDT or APBC registered.

My news is that Pip has been doing really well in his crate in the kitchen. He woke up briefly at 3.00 am, but dh just went into the living room, without going in the kitchen and told him to settle down and he went straight back to sleep. Then not a peep till I got up at 6.00 am.

Ds2 is off because of the teaching strikes and we took both dogs for a nice quiet walk this morning. Saw about 5/6 dogs, but all that the owners didn't allow to approach, so it was actually quite good for Pip as he was clearly happy and relaxed watching them from 50ft or so away and I was able to reinforce that behaviour.

Sally my new leads arrived today. I bought bright purple and they're really nice. Not harsh nylon like some of the ones in the shops.

Oops, that should say Metime not Meti.

mintchoc - I had the same with Buddy - he would have absolutely mental moments and the kids would be screaming and up on the sofa avoiding him - he would nip and snap. I had to tell the kids that them screaming and waving hands reinforced "its playtime" to Buddy. Now we manage his mental moments and get the squeaky toys out so he knows he can play and we take the opportunity to tire him out. playtime stops if he gets bitey and i shout and if need be nip/pinch his ear - this is what an alpha dog (so im told) would do in the wild- he takes notice of this and is sent to bed. he usually comes back calmer and ready to play nicely - much like a toddler, now we have got to the point where i only have to tell him to calm down or he's going to bed.

I understand the fear and have had times where i have thought OMG what have i done.

Calming the situation down is the first step .

I've also found that everyone ignoring the dog in the morning and when we come in has helped with manic moments when coming in or from downstairs - it communicates to the dog that im the alpha dog, not you. sounds a bit nasty but the more they understand their place in the family the happier they are, its stressful for them to be the alpha dog as they aren't yet equipped to deal with it. I've read lots of Jan Fennel books and they help you understand the dog and how to make it part of your family. Hope this helps. x

Thanks buddy yes I think we need to be calmer in the mornings and I need to stop my tendency to ask DS s to take puppy out so I can mop the floor or whatever. Just focusing a bit more on kids and puppy will help. He has got this maniac side though which I'm surprised at as it's come a bit out of the blue.

Moose - thanks for ideas re:training. I haven't used our clicker because I was impatient to get started on actual commands but I can see i have missed out a really useful step. Puppy def focuses on treat not me!

I'm going to start clicker training today.

Also found out our puppy has put on 1.5kilos in the week since we last weighed him! Massive growth spurt so he's been on food allowance for a 6k puppy when he's actually 7.6k. Not surprised he's badgering us - he's hungry!

Diplodog did really well at her first puppy training / socialisation session, and was thrilled to be among other dogs. Was quite suprised though - were were recommended this by a neighbour and it's a KC affiliated group but they use more "old fashioned" techniques - no clickers and not particularly treat focussed. I suppose in some ways this might not be a bad thing for Diplodog who we haven't yet managed to interest in treats (even chicken!) but I was shocked when I heard that many of the bigger dogs have choke / check chains and the leader suggested we might need a half check for Diplodog (who's about the size of a beagle at the moment at 4 months). I thought this went out with the ark, and we certainly won't be using this.

thanks moosemamma. that all made good sense, we have just got back from our walk up the local hill/forrest. as i went out i went looking for the 11 ockock gang, who meet up there every day. We have met them before on occasions. im pleased to report that Henry had a lovely time amongst the pack of 8 other dogs all of mixed size, age, breed. One of the ladies is a guide dog trainer and had her big 8mnth old lab with her, she was saying to just take it easy with him and do quieter places first aswell, the dogs played for an hour, chasing a ball etc and there wasnt any agression from henry or the others, it was a lovely experience, we all then just walked the pack back towards where we were parked. Henry did me proud, in that when we were all going down steps he walked slowly behind us taking it at our pace rather than shoving past (as taught so he doesnt knock mum down the stairs when she gets home). i take him up the hills every day and he is always very well behaved, its the noise and congestion that he struggles with. But yes i will be seeking some advice and looking to hire a personal trainer to work with me on him, as i want to help him and myself for the better.

Diplodocus, that doesn't sound like a good class at all. Any technique that uses physical punishment can seriously damage the bond between dog and handler and even result in re-directed aggression down the line in some dogs. Punitive measures just suppress the dog's natural feelings and behaviour, which stores up trouble for later.

It's dogs that have been trained like that that end up biting somewhere down the line and the owners say, I don't know what happened/he's never done that before/he's not aggressive - basically because they've forced him to suppress all the signs that he is stressed/anxious/scared/can't cope with something.

Far better to learn to read an understand your dog's behaviour and methods of communication (via people such as Turid Rugaas or Grisha Stewart, build a strong mutual bond and deal with problems carefully and sensitively as they arise, than to force a dog into submission.

Pack theory has been scientifically disproven, yet some trainers - including Jan Fennel are still peddling it, despite having learned their trade years ago and being seriously out of date with modern scientific understanding of how dogs think, behave and communicate.

Modern training, think Guide Dogs, Assistance Dogs, Hearing Dogs, Search and Rescue, Sniffer etc etc, all use modern, positive, non-punitive training methods - if they didn't they simply couldn't build the bond necessary to get their dogs working to such a high standard and ensure they are bomb-proof in terms of never showing aggression or suddenly disobeying their handler.

Sorry Buddysmom. I guess we are very different style dog trainers, if that's the route you've chosen, we are going to have to agree to disagree for the sake of the thread.

Metime, so glad Henry enjoyed his walk with other dogs and was happy in their company. It does sound like you just need to build up very slowly to busier places that are more challenging to his senses. It's so lovely when you have a nice walk like that. It helps you see that it will be ok in the end.

Ds2 and I have just taken Pip to the park, then round the village without Lurcherboy. There were a few dogs he just wanted to watch from a distance and not get too close to, but he was much more relaxed than last time we went without Lurcherboy. He allowed a little Westie to sniff his nose (although jammed himself against ds2's legs and trembled while she was doing it) and then actually approached a Labrador that was walking past the end of our drive. She's a lovely waggy/wriggly girl and only about 10 months old herself. He was fostered with 3 Labs, but they were black and she is the palest of golds, so I do wonder if her being a Lab made him more willing to approach. Either way, I was really proud of him for actually approaching her.

Yes Moosemama - I don't think we'll be going back. I didn't go - DH did, and it wasn't at all what we were expecting. We'll certainly be looking into other ones but not sure how we'll get on if she's not very treat-oriented.A lot of the class was apparently quite positive and he did stress praise (which I think is probably more something Diplodog will work for) but the choke chain is an approach we certainly won't be taking and set alarm bells ringing. TBH at the moment all we wanted was socialisation (which is what we were expecting ) but it was actually formal training with some of the dogs much older.

Does she play? Toys can be used as a reward instead of treats, but some dogs will just work for praise and if they do, that's fine too - my Wheaten girl did, she was never fussed with toys or treats particularly - although weirdly would do anything for a sniff of a banana skin. (Can't remember how I found that out now! [grin)

This is a video about how to train toy motivated toys to work for food if you want to give it a go.

She quite likes her toys but it's the human interaction of play she seems to really like rather than the toy itself IYKWIM. Will certainly look at the vid. Thanks.

moosemama i understand your comment. when your five year old is pinned up by what will be a sizeable dog, you you need to do something. For the most part we use positive praise and i have only once had to pinch the ear, to get Buddy to get off my daughter. I could relate to mintchocchip and wanted to share my experience. This was some weeks ago and knowing his place in the family means that he doesn't feel the need to bite or show everyone that he thinks he is the alpha dog. He doesn't jump up at visitors or does he feel the need to "see'" the postman off or bark endlessly. He is playful and well loved and we have lots of fun as a family. He wants to be with us and follows me and the kids round and gives a paw and has his tummy tickled. He isn't a suppressed animal but a valued member of my family. As i wouldnt expect bad behaviour from my children i dont expect it from Buddy. I do appreciate that we all have our own "parenting" styles and it wouldnt do for us all, or our dogs, to be the same. I found Jan Fennel and her point of view quite helpful and her years of experience of "problem" dogs and how to help resolve these problems, quite an eye opener.

As I said, better to agree to disagree than to argue this on what is otherwise a genial thread. I too read Jan Fennel many years ago, when many/most trainers still subscribed to pack/dominance theory - but times have moved on and it has been proven that dogs simply don't spend their lives conspiring to take over our households and become the alpha dog - whatever an alpha dog is, because it doesn't actually exist. Alpha wolves, yes, but many thousands of years of evolution and domestication have happened since then and studies have proven that there is no pack structure and no alpha dog in feral packs of domestic dogs.

My pup is 17 weeks old, he doesn't nip, jump up, bark at the doorbell or even approach the front door. He is also going to be sizeable, in fact I already have a large dog and both have been trained to live comfortably with the family, including 3 dcs, the youngest of whom is 4 without the need for me to inflict pain on them. I wouldn't hurt my children to prove I'm the boss neither would I do it to my dogs.

I don't doubt that your dog is loved, but cannot accept that pain and punishment can ever be the right way to teach any creature, human, dog or otherwise how we want them to behave - especially when there are tried and tested non-punitive methods that have been proven to work over and over again. At 18 weeks old or less, I simply can't believe you couldn't have distracted or removed an over-excited puppy from 'pinning' your dd, without resorting to inflicting pain on him and yes, I do find it unacceptable that someone would even think that hurting a puppy is ever the right way to handle them - inflicting pain might be the quick solution - but imo it's never the right one and there's no two ways about it, pinching a puppy's ear is inflicting pain.

Unless you have studied dog behaviour and communication, how can you tell whether or not he is being suppressed or feeling oppressed? Canine communication is subtle and complex, it's very easy for the untrained eye to read their body language incorrectly or not notice the subtle signals that demonstrate their stress levels etc. I have been keeping dogs for almost 25 years, have studied them and done a lot of handling and training in different arena, yet I am still a beginner when it comes to understanding and reading their communication signals.

That is all I am going to say. You are entitled to raise your puppy however you want, you may be lucky and your dog might be one of the ones that copes with it. I just didn't want your advice on pack structure and dominance theory to go unchallenged where there are first time dog keepers, who need to know both sides of the story.

I think it is useful Moose to have that input and clear counter argument to the dominance theory. As a first time puppy owner I might be, if not swayed, but certainly thrown off kilter, by alternative methods of dog training. I'm happy sticking to praise, treats and the positive training methods.

To be honest, I think it is my children that need as much if not more training than the puppy. I am having to be so patient with DS2 who has selective hearing but I keep using positive methods with him- lots of praise when he's gentle with puppy and lots of distracting before he runs off to leap around the garden! I think that's why I'm so drained and tired and a bit tearful when DH and I are on our own - I'm having to train kids and puppy at same time while also coming to terms with massive change in my life and freedom. And I asked for all this to happen! My DH didn't and he's being a star and a real solid support.

As is this thread- what a lifeline this is! Thanks so much to you all for advice/mutual moaning etc!

This is an article from a respected member of the APBC.

If anyone is interested The Genius of Dogs is an amazing book for looking at the scientific evidence of how dogs think and behave. It really makes you see them in a new light and is an enjoyable read at the same time.

In Defence of Dogs puts to bed dominance theory, but is a bit of pain to wade through.

I would also highly recommend the two books I linked to earlier On Talking Terms with Dogs: Calming Signals, by Turid Rugaas. This is a very slim book - I read it in an afternoon, but is fascinating and has you recognising your own and other people's dog's communication signals from the off.

The Official Ahimsa Dog Training Manual, by Grisha Stewart (the originator of BAT - Behaviour Adjustment Traininig - for aggressive dogs) is fantastic for helping you understand the way your dog thinks and learns and giving you the skills you need to help your dog learn the things you want him to know.

How do you teach a puppy to ask to go outside? Finn is generally very good, only had one poo accident indoors and a few puddles, he's dry all night but obviously we're still taking him outside when he wakes up/after play and after food. I can't remember how it happened with previous puppies, does it just happen or do I have to train in a particular way?

Life - I don't know either? I just think that the frequency of pooing and weeing seemed to just naturally reduce. Toby seems to take himself to the back door and then whine to be let out. He sleeps in our room at night, and will whine if he needs to go out. Must be linked to maturity I suppose. Toby is now 14weeks.

Talking of Toby sleeping upstairs, we thought we had lost him this evening. Searched everywhere - in the bathrooms, the bedrooms, the conservatory, garden and then we found him passed out underneath our bed, completely out for the count and blissfully unaware of the drama. Suffice to say we are ALL OVER this responsible dog ownership stuff!