Fear aggression is a long, hard slog

[ChickensHaveNoEyebrows]

First off, I know how annoying it is that I keep banging on about this, so feel free to realise I'm the OP, click away and mutter about me being a PITA. It's ok. I understand.

Jas is 2 next week. He's been displaying aggressive responses to other dogs for around a year now. I sought professional help, and we practiced BAT training with some success. He now has half a dozen doggy mates that he can happily mingle with without reacting. He doesn't exactly play as such, but he doesn't jump at their heads going 'RAAAAAAH!!!' and scaring the shit out of me, the other dog and the other owner. So, you know, progress. The problem I have is new, strange dogs running up to him. I do let him off lead, and he doesn't approach other dogs, but if I see a dog beginning to approach I try and get him on lead asap. Today, he was on lead as we made our way home through the woods. As we rounded a corner, a large Husky was standing sniffing a tree. I stopped and looked for the owner, who was a little way away. The husky looked interested, and started to approach. I called to the owner that my dog wasn't friendly, and to please call his dog back. He dithered, and now his dog was less than three feet away. I pulled Jas behind me, and used the flinger in an attempt to create a barrier so that the humungous Husky wouldn't get closer. Utterly useless. Huskies are huge and strong. He laughed in the face of my barrier, and went around me. Next thing, the husky yelped and ran back in front of me, tail tucked and paw up, looking shocked. Jas was still behind me, so I don't quite know what happened. The owner finally grabbed his dog at this point, and told the husky 'it's your own fault' Anyway, if you've managed to read this police statement post, can you offer any suggestions in to how I can stop Jas reacting in this way? If it was one of his doggy mates, I know it wouldn't have happened. I'm gutted, because every time this happens, it undoes a lot of hard training and makes me despair quite frankly.

The other owner was at fault here. You did warn him and he chose to ignore the warning. I know it doesn't help Jas's progress but the other owner was just being inconsiderate and irresponsible.

Unfortunately, there isn't much you can do. Some dog owners are numpties, and simply don't understand the concept of a reactive dog. "But my dog's friendly" they bleat.... "Yes, but mine isn't" we say, through gritted teeth.

I think the only things we can do are to keep publicising things like the Yellow Dog scheme, and by posts like yours keep hammering home to the wider dog owning public that not every dog wants to play.

I understand completely where you are coming from and could practically have written your post myself. We've done BAT with our lovely old boy and like you have made excellent progress, but he does get very flustered and reactive when an offlead dog comes bounding over, even though he wears a yellow bandana. We were out this morning very early and the park was practically empty - the boys were on lead, one muzzled, one wearing his yellow. Yet this strange bloke kept repeatedly allowing his off lead dog to come over to us, and run round in circles even though I was clearly taking avoiding action, and even shouted "Away" in a very pointed manner several times. Darling Mick coped much better today than he would have several months ago, but like you I find it pushes back all the hard work we are doing.

I keep reminding myself of the distance we have come this year - and also keep sharing things like posters etc for Yellow Dog at vets, dog shows, charity events etc.

Damn :( I was hoping for some super, secret, magic training method which would help . Gah, it's just such a kick in the teeth when he gets to practice these responses, and takes bloody weeks to practice nice approaches with known dogs again. I hate myself for thinking it, but sometimes I wish he was the kind of little, low energy dog that I could keep on lead all the time and just road walk. Most of the stress in my life would be cancelled out like that It's hard to enjoy him when you have to be constantly and permanently on guard. Weirdly, he is wonderful with the puppy

Scuttle, can I ask where you got your bandana? And would it be suitable for a wood foraging, fence jumping, free running spaniel? He has to run, my dog.

Try spacedogs.org.uk/wp/ I don't actually think much of yellow dogs because they allow anyone to sponsor them, even those with highly questionable ethics who probably add to the reactive dog problem. Spacedogs is totally ethical and even has approved force free trainers to help with reactive dogs. Nando Brown is an approved Space Dogs trainer.

Chickens only someone that lives with a reactive dog realises how difficult it is and you are right it is a long long slog and you are doing brilliantly. You are becoming an excellent dog handler due to Jas which is a huge bonus

The world is also full of numpties who have no idea and just let their dogs make the situation worse.

A couple of things to think about

What is Jas good at? I have a very reactive collie but he is the cuddliest, loving adorable cuddle dog I have ever had. He is hard working, trusting and intelligent. The only thing he finds hard is other dogs

How much better has Jas got over the last year?

How much better are you at dealing with his reactivity over the last year?

Jas will always be reactive........No don't run for the gin, what gets easier is that you can manage situations better, his threshold will increase but you will always have a dog that may find situations difficult.

Do not ever worry about putting your dog before the numpties so in the situation you were in today do not try to cure Jas, just get him on the lead and move away, turn direction avoid all difficult situations.

This is not taking the easy way out but over time you will see that Jas relaxes and gets less reactive as he is not forced to deal with hard situations for him

A link here from the lovely Sophia Yin I know you know all this but again it shows we reactive dogs owners are not alone!

If all else fails chocolate and wine - tomorrow is another day

yellow dog project with bandanas etc

PS I have done a lot of work with BAT but in all dogs have found a plateau with them. They get to be fantastic during BAT sessions but then real life situations seem to be very hard as it is not set up exactly as BAT. So you need to work hard now to get RL being like a BAT setup, so the minute you see another dog coming out and about on walks turn away - at this point I would not wait for the calming signal I would just leg it. Be prepared to stay at this stage for a while (maybe month) then you will see a huge improvement again.

Am I allowed to have a crush on Nando Brown.........

idiridog join the queue! Only I have been humiliated on FB after saying that and a friend tagged him in on the convo!

Also, see my post above, money is better off going to Space Dogs rather than yellow dog, they have allowed a 'whisperer' to sponsor them! [grr]

I went to a show a couple of weekends ago and saw a stall with something like these I don't think it was quite the same, but certainly similar. I think the fact that it isn't a 'fashionable' thing like a bandanna (ie some people make their dog wear those every day) or small as a ribbon helped... sort of 'men at work' sign - but the ones I saw definitely said 'MY DOG NEEDS SPACE' on them.

We had a collie cross who was so frightened of children that she would attack - we got her over that - she never liked them but would just avoid them and stay close to us rather than lunging for them as she did when we got her. She was also scared of dogs and would simply flee - one of the things that we did with her was to take her to agility training - this might seem a completely batty idea as there are lots of dogs there - however, most were fairly well behaved, and all were completely fixated on when they were going to be able to have their go next. After a few weeks of panic, she realised that the other dogs were ignoring her and then got to enjoy doing the agility.

Omg Lilcamper thank you for letting me know - spacedogs it is.

Ah, thanks everyone Jas is a brilliant dog in so many ways, totally soppy with people, he just wants to be left alone by other dogs. He's much calmer and more chilled out around elderly dogs, and will sometimes even greet nicely, but young bouncy dogs....So much raaaaaaaaaah I guess I knew he'd always be reactive :(. I am currently walking Jas and the pup separately (helps to have the time to train/socialise the pup etc) so avoiding dogs with Jas is no problem unless we're ambushed. I am a bit concerned as to how I'll manage when pupster is older, though. Ideally, I'd like to be able to walk them together, but I don't avoid dogs with the pup because he seems to quite like them. Hmmm.

Space dogs regularly donates money to force free rescues too, win win

I'm embarrassed to mention my own business but we do very nice yellow bandanas here www.milgicoats.co.uk/index.php/bandanas/yellow-dog-bandanas mainly because I have a real thing about the safety aspect of knotting bandanas around dog's necks - ours have a Velcro closure which I feel is much safer. And we also proudly manufacture in the UK (here in Wales) and as many know, I do a huge amount of volunteering for pointies, and the business also does too, so we tick the ethical box.

Idirdog - your post is interesting about the plateau in BAT training. This has been our experience with Mick too. If I looked at a graph of his progress there'd be quite a few flat bits and then some steep jumps.

I also find it helps to reflect on some of the reasons why a dog might be reactive. For Mick, his arthritis is an issue, and his eyesight is deteriorating, and he's elderly. No matter how much BAT we do with him, he's always going to have these problems, in fact I expect them to deteriorate over time - so he is naturally going to be apprehensive if a dog he doesn't know, and can't see very well, comes bounding over and possibly hurts him.

Oh, and gin. Lots of gin.

Scuttle, that's perfect. Now, I reckon I need whippet size

I could have written your post Chickens today. So true .
Nervous aggressive and cant be let off leash sadly because he is a scent hound and will be off over the hills and far away without a brain cell engaging . Not my dog but family hound who I hound sit .
Today was horrendous . I walk him on off the beaten track areas anyway. Two lovely dalmations came up off leash and were controlled superbly by the owner but ..........the snarling and fight mode mood of mine shook me to the core . So upset . The owner was lovely and we got passed .

80% of time I can use techniques and distraction ......but the other 20% is hell. I so feel for you .
lovely dog and so gentle at home . I owned collies and am very unused to this .The ball was their focus bless them .

Is the yellow bandana or ribbon known in your area ? Not in mine at all so guess I need to print off some posters maybe and tack them onto gateposts .

bassetfeet if you go on the spacedogs link I posted above there are posters and leaflets to download

Seems that Jas has got himself a reputation Another husky owner saw me out and about today with the pup and asked me where my 'nasty spaniel' was. Granted, he had had a 'Raaaaaaaah!' at her husky a few weeks ago, and is the reason I've started putting him on lead when I walk through the woods. I explained that he was fearful, and she laughed 'Any excuse to do what he does best!' and 'He just likes starting fights!'. Her husky was, at this point, slapping the puppy with a huge paw. Oh, how I long for land so I don't have to mix with the general dog population

oh chickens i feel your pain and that of other dog walkers, i have two little terriers who are submissive and excellent with other dogs. I always put them on the lead when i see other dogs i don't know but owners with bad dogs just let them attack my dogs. I have pulled off so many dogs and dressed down plenty of owners as i refuse to stand for it. I walk really early and on road in the evening and walk in a very low dog dense area. I am vigilant and have prevented a lot of bad behavior by blocking, staying back and recognsing an agressive dog a mile away. It can really ruin your walk as no matter what you do there will always be a stupid owner with a clearly aggressive dog off lead going for you and your dogs and blaming you for it. Over the years i have used tactics that have reduced this happening but when their dog comes to you and is determined and it will not listen to their owner then you have to deal with it. Unfair but it really is the sh*t part of having a dog. I would love to just road walk mine but they are young and need to run and to be honest it happens so rarely now i still want them to get a good run in the fields. I have moved from rural to urban and rural is worse as more people have dogs off lead. Don't wish too hard for small submissive cuties becasue you may suddenly find yourself the prey...I love my dogs but has put me off having them in the future when my two go to doggie heaven. sorry to rant.

Right, have contacted another behaviourist who runs socialisation classes for problem dogs. Going for an initial assessment on the 7th of July. Damnit, I will stop this dog from making me cry!

Have you tried the look at that game? It may not help if a dog if right in your dogs face but it is very useful if you need Jas to be near other dogs without reacting.

Please can I ask a question about BAT? If you are waiting for the dog to start lip-licking etc, have you not gone too close to the other dog? (because the lip-licking shows the dog is stressed). But this is what BAT suggests? I guess I don't understand it, basically. I'm interested in what idirdog and Scuttlebutter have said about plateaus and wondering if counter-conditioning isn't better to begin with?

[Disclaimer: I only vaguely know about BAT, as you can probably tell from the question].

BAT does work on a similar principle to counter conditioning in that it attempts to change the emotional response to a situation. However I would say that BAT has multiple rewards that are not based only on treats.

BAT does seem in many dogs to work quicker that just traditional counter conditioning as the dogs get a functional reward for an alternative behaviour.

It is important for the dog to show some very minor degree of calming signal eg lip lick because BAT will then show the dog that alternative behaviour at this point brings the reward eg the dog is in control of the situation.

So the dog is exposed to the trigger at a distance where the dog doesn?t react. You then wait for your dog to look at the trigger (stimulus) and to offer an alternative behaviour, like looking on the side or sniffing, etc.
At that moment mark that behaviour then turn around and leave (functional reward). You can also offer additional treats to your dog after that, as well (second reward).

The dogs quickly learn that they can control each stage by their reaction which is why BAT can be so powerful.

Thanks for the explanation, idirdog. :) I think to my mind it involves getting too close for comfort to other dogs, so I don't think I'll try it, but obviously lots of people find it useful.