Fear aggression is a long, hard slog

[ChickensHaveNoEyebrows]

First off, I know how annoying it is that I keep banging on about this, so feel free to realise I'm the OP, click away and mutter about me being a PITA. It's ok. I understand.

Jas is 2 next week. He's been displaying aggressive responses to other dogs for around a year now. I sought professional help, and we practiced BAT training with some success. He now has half a dozen doggy mates that he can happily mingle with without reacting. He doesn't exactly play as such, but he doesn't jump at their heads going 'RAAAAAAH!!!' and scaring the shit out of me, the other dog and the other owner. So, you know, progress. The problem I have is new, strange dogs running up to him. I do let him off lead, and he doesn't approach other dogs, but if I see a dog beginning to approach I try and get him on lead asap. Today, he was on lead as we made our way home through the woods. As we rounded a corner, a large Husky was standing sniffing a tree. I stopped and looked for the owner, who was a little way away. The husky looked interested, and started to approach. I called to the owner that my dog wasn't friendly, and to please call his dog back. He dithered, and now his dog was less than three feet away. I pulled Jas behind me, and used the flinger in an attempt to create a barrier so that the humungous Husky wouldn't get closer. Utterly useless. Huskies are huge and strong. He laughed in the face of my barrier, and went around me. Next thing, the husky yelped and ran back in front of me, tail tucked and paw up, looking shocked. Jas was still behind me, so I don't quite know what happened. The owner finally grabbed his dog at this point, and told the husky 'it's your own fault' Anyway, if you've managed to read this police statement post, can you offer any suggestions in to how I can stop Jas reacting in this way? If it was one of his doggy mates, I know it wouldn't have happened. I'm gutted, because every time this happens, it undoes a lot of hard training and makes me despair quite frankly.

SmokyHeart that is NOT BAT at all. You do not get too close to other dogs that is just what it is preventing.

Some dogs in BAT training start with stuffed dogs across the other side of a field. It is very gentle. low stress and you see improvements really quickly.

You of course do not have to try BAT but you are incorrect that it encourages you to get close to dogs just the opposite.

More information here here

I've found BAT to be hugely useful. I now just need to work out how to help Jas cope with the surprise dog that leaps through a gap in the hedge or runs around a corner in the woods. Or appears on lead on a narrow footpath

However, today, we had a good walk. I saw two GSD's across the field, called Jas to me...and he only bloody came straight away. I might have done a little dance. Once we were passed, I released him again and he was a star. And the key to the much better recall? I ditched the head collar. We're walking everywhere very slowly in a stop/start manner, but he's beginning to get the hang of loose lead walking.

I'm going to celebrate my victory with biscuits.

Are the biscuits for you or Jas?

Me. He snaffled rather a lot of hotdog during our walk

I've been working a lot with my terrier who is random-dog-aggressive, trying to figure out why she likes some dogs and absolutely goes mental at others.
I can't see it, I'm sure to her there is a difference, but I can't tell what it is.

So instead I've been encouraging her to just walk past, giving her the choice to not engage if she doesn't want to, rather than (what I was doing) taking her on lead and walking past with a snarling, growling wild animal who was lunging at the other dog. I've noticed that a lot of it is to do with me and how I approach or react to other dogs coming towards us. She takes a lot of her cues from me, so me being calm and sort of generally pleased to see another dog seems to give her the signal that this is a good thing.

I also tend to keep moving slowly, rather than stop and chat, because that seems to give her "permission" to move along too, rather than feeling she has to engage.

We've come on masses in the last couple of months, gone from automatic on-lead snarling and aggression to casually walking past in most instances (I'm still watching her in case I see that she really is going to go into attack-mode and then I call her to me, put her on lead and walk the other way, chatting and distracting as we go).

I really, really sympathise with you and anyone else whose dog is like this.

I think I deserve a biscuit too, actually, as we met two dogs this morning, 1 off lead who came over and 1 on lead who didn't, and my dog (was on lead anyway as we were near horses) just sort of sniffed at the dog that came up to us and we walked on, no incident with the other on-lead dog either.

That's def. worht a biscuit, isn't it?!

I agree with the comment about your own approach colouring the meeting for some dogs - our last dog tended to be scared so looked a bit 'up for it' and would bark, see the other dog start to look aggressive, turn tail and run and so get chased. She used to run straight to us for protection (and not put the brakes on, using you to stop instead) so that wasn't too bad, but it wasn't a good start. With a lot of work this got a lot better - but we would always tell her that 'that's a nice dog' in a very positive, friendly manner, and often the unsure (at our dog's stance) dog would assume a much more friendly stance at that, our dog would relax, and all would be significantly easier. It has also worked for our new rescue - she's not at all aggressive, but she was definitely scared of strange dogs, and it helps with her too, even though less required than for our first.

I was talking to our dog trainer in class on Wednesday night, and he was saying that one approach he tried with his reactive collie was teaching her to play bow on cue - he said she found that helpful, along with BAT and other work.

I feel for you Chickens, I had a large breed fear aggressive dog (FA towards dogs and people as a result of illness during his socialisation period) and we basically changed our whole lifestyle to accommodate his needs. We did a lot of work with him (basically BAT training before it became known as BAT) when he was young and he did improve a lot, but as others have said, he retained the potential to be reactive if the wrong set of circumstances occurred.

It was very hard when he was younger and many people tried to get us to have him pts, as they couldn't accept the restrictions us having him placed on our lives and we did in fact lose quite a few friends as, depending on who it was, they were either no longer willing or able to visit our house and we weren't able to take him to theirs. BUT it did get better as he got older. Just through consistent, careful/managed exposure and positive reinforcement he gradually came to accept that we were in control and he didn't need to react to other dogs.

He wasn't perfect. He was never a dog you would take to a busy park on a Sunday afternoon - or to any public event, but we moved from only being able to take him to out of the way places where we would be unlikely to meet other walkers/dogs and walking him very early in the morning or late at night, to being able to take him for walks at normal times.

It wasn't always plain sailing either and we did have a particularly bad year where we had had enough and decided to just let him (and us) have an easy stress free life, rather than constantly pushing on to try and sort out his problems.

One thing that really helped with him was to get him completely fixated on a particular toy - in his case frisbees. As soon as you got a frisbee out to play with the rest of the world disappeared for him and he would ignoren absolutely anything around him - so we could then take him to all sorts of places we couldn't before and as long as we carried the frisbee he wouldn't bat an eyelid.

Eventually, through going to lots of new places etc using the frisbee to keep his attention, I think he must have become counter-conditioned, as going to these (formerly scary) places now meant the frisbee appeared - rather than something scary happening and at that point his general demeanour changed, he became visibly more relaxed and calm and we were able to start doing more work with controlled introductions.

I think I read on another thread recently that Jas has a thing for his ball? If so, you might be able to work up to doing something similar.

Sadly, we lost our boy at the age of 7 and a half, but by then he was a different dog. If we wanted him to accept someone, all they had to do was pick up his frisbee and throw it for him once for him to bring it right back and love them forever!

As Scuttle said, training an alternative behaviour can also help once stress levels have reduced to the point that the dog is able to respond to cues. We did lots of work on the instant down with our boy, because while he was in the process of lying down, he couldn't jump up, lunge and/or bark.

You are an amazing person for sticking with your dog and doing everything you can to help him overcome and/or handle his fears and you really should be proud of yourself for that.

Idirdog, thanks for the clarification and sorry if I misunderstood you. I didn't mean to imply you were doing anything wrong, was just having trouble understanding the process.

Anyway if people are finding that it works for them, that's what matters :).

I think I have to keep my dog on a lead. I don't want to, but I think I might have to. We were just walking through the woods, he was off lead rootling around, when I saw a husky-type appear up ahead. I called Jas back, and we started walking the other way. The husky-type followed at a run to catch up with Jas, and he reacted. Lots of noise and flashing teeth. I grabbed Jas and had to put him behind me until the other dog's owner appeared. She still didn't call her dog back immediately, I had to ask her to so we could get away. I am so stressed about this. I want to be able to give my dog a good run, but I don't want aggro like this on every walk. I know this is my problem and not the other owner's. Is it possible to give such a high energy dog a good life if he's always on lead? I'm on my knees here.

I feel for you - it really shakes you up when something like that happens doesn't it?

Yes imo, it is possible to give a high energy fear aggressive dog a good life, you just need to think outside the box a bit.

You are probably already doing this, but can you try and think of some places and times you can walk where you're less likely to meet other dogs. We used to get up at 5.00 and walk my boy across some out of the way fields so he could go off-lead and then give him a good lead walk late at night.

Other lead walks were kept short and sweet and were purely training/desensitising exercises. We used to have three people whenever we could. One to handle the dog, one to observe the dog and handler and one to act as a sort of sentinel and field unwanted approaches from other dogs/people.

Once we reached the point where he wasn't reactive on the lead anymore and once he was totally fixated on his frisbee, we could let him off near other dogs in certain places and he didn't bother with them.

If you aren't confident you can do this alone then you could approach someone like Dog Communication. There's a video of some of their work . They run classes, but also do 1:1 rehabilitation of dogs with poor communication skills etc. There are other people doing similar work - but I have heard very good things about these people and would almost definitely have taken my boy to them if they'd been around them.

Alternatively, is there any chance you could befriends someone locally who owns some land? Lots of lurcher/grey owners pay a small fee to local landowners for the sole use of a well fenced paddock, so that their dogs can go off lead safely. It's worth asking at local riding schools/livery yards etc.

Lots of play in the garden and things like clicker training and puzzle games to wear him out mentally will help as well.

You have my sympathy. One of the greatest pleasures of owning a dog is taking them for a walk and enjoying the peace of the countryside. Tbh if I could not do that with my dog, I would really have to reconsider the situation. I realize that sounds harsh, but life is too short...

The problem is I don't drive, so getting him to places where I can guarantee we won't see other dogs is very difficult. Don't think I haven't thought about how much easier my life would be without him, Medical, because believe me it has crossed my mind many times. But he's our dog, we love him and he's a wonderful, soft, gentle boy with people. He's just reactive when directly approached. If the other dog is happy to simply pass by, so is he. I am seeing the behaviourist on Sunday with a view to starting training classes to socialise him. I just wish I could erect some kind of force field around him of about 6 foot, then things would be perfect :( The early morning thing could work, I suppose, but I can't pretend it fills me with joy. Having a dog was supposed to enhance our lives, not completely over take it. Sorry, it's been a rough few weeks and I just wish it was easier.

chickens would it be better to walk him in a park/ field rather than in the woods ,at least on a field you can see what is about rather than dogs just appearing from around corners .

I have to go through a bit of woodland to get to the field, Floral, but I think I'll have to keep him on lead until we reach it. At least then I can try and prevent any interactions. There is a little fenced off area I can take him to and throw his ball. I suppose I need to get over my feelings of guilt at curbing his freedom. Better to have him restricted maybe than both of us ending up in trouble.

No really a helpful post Medicalwriter.

However Chickens comes back with a fantastic post despite having a belly full of reactive dogs this week .

Don't every worry about curbing his freedom tbh he is probably grateful. If you took Medicalwriters approach he would be dead so anything is better than that! Don't think about what he does not get but think what he does get. Thats all Jas thinks about

Are there any reactive dog group walks in your area, they have been a huge help to a lot of people. It is good to know that you are not alone and great for the dogs as they get to know each other. Also dogs in groups are less reactive.

If you have had a rough few days , give yourself some slack , play in the garden do a bit of training, give the walk a miss - it will not hurt either of you to have a bit of relaxing time.

No - Not!

I am the same Chickens, I don't drive, so could only walk our boy when dh was around. Fortunately for us at the time, it was long before we had children, so we could both go out at the same time without needing a babysitter - I appreciate that might not be an option for you.

Don't feel you need to apologise for how you are feeling, I've been there and it's just horrible.

Our boy was reactive to people, unless he knew them from a pup, as well. If you took the time and trouble to introduce them to him properly once, he never forgot them, would love them forever and was the softest, sweetest boy - but he couldn't handle being approached by strangers. Unfortunately due to his size and general appearance - he looked like an enormous Ridgeback - not many people wanted to try and get to know him. Which of course I completely understood, but it broke my heart at the same time.

Keeping him had such a massive detrimental effect on our day to day life and social life that we did eventually reach the point of no return and sit down and discuss having him pts. We cried together for hours, we hugged each other and our boy and we came very close to making that decision, but in the end, one look from his beautiful big brown eyes was enough to give us the strength to carry on. It was a truly horrendous time.

I used to fantasize about winning the lottery and buying a property with tonnes of land where he could run free and be relaxed and happy without bothering anyone else. (Still do that actually, even though I now have a great soppy lurcher who's friends with everyone.)

At the end of the day, just like you, he was our boy and we couldn't give up on him. It wasn't a decision we took lightly and we had to seriously consider him, us and the safety of other dogs and people. To be honest, it was one of the darkest periods of my life ... but we came through it.

Like you, we decided to get another pup. Having had the problems we had with our boy, we decided to go for a pedigree (the only time we ever bought rather than adopted) and that's when we got our Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier.

Having her was like a breath of fresh air. I walked them separately and with her could enjoy all the good things about walking with a dog. I took her to two dog clubs and she came to college with me to do Canine Studies. We did a bit of agility, obedience and even heelwork to music and surprisingly, once we leaned off trying to 'fix' our boy and my stress levels reduced through enjoying another dog he seemed to suddenly improve. Of course it could also have been something to do with, having managed to live with another dog, he was finally learning something about canine communication. He even decided my Dad's JRT was an acceptable friend and then Dad's neighbours 2 JRT bitches and we had some lovely times walking them all on the beach together (I love walking on beaches as it's so easy to scan for other people or dogs).

Looking back, it was having him that pushed me into learning properly about dogs and their behaviour. If it hadn't been for him, I would still be clueless and without a doubt, having him made me a better dog owner. He taught me the reality of what all the rescues say about a dog being a lifelong commitment and made me look at and think about the way I lived with my dogs and what I could/should change to do it better. I owe him such a lot - and so do all the dogs I've had since.

No-one can tell you what to do, it's such a hard situation that all you can do is ask yourself those really hard questions and be brutally honest with yourself about the answers. Not everyone is in the position I was to be able to manage and modify their dog's behaviour and what we did would not necessarily be the right choice for someone else.

I'm posting because I want you to know that I do know how you feel and you are not alone in this. You are a lovely person, who loves her dogs and wants the best for them - if you weren't this wouldn't be so hard, because you'd already have done what thousands of people do every day and give up on Jas without even trying.

I know it's easy to say, but try to be kinder to yourself. What you're going through is extremely stressful and isolating and you need to find other things to do and focus on so that your life doesn't end up completely revolving around Jas, as that wouldn't be good for either of you.

The only thing I will say is that if the behaviourist/training sessions don't work out - do give the Dog Communication people a call. I have no experience of them myself, but have been on threads on other dog forums with some really experienced people who rate them extremely highly. I really wish they'd been around when I had my boy

I don't have all the answers, but I do understand - so in the absence of being able to fix it all for you I am sending you some very unMNetty ((hugs)), a pack of tissues and a strong .

Totally agree with everything idirdog says - as usual.

It really helped us when we realised that our boy was happy just being with us and we didn't need to spend every single day fighting to 'fix' him. It was ok to take time off to just be, play in the garden, hide treats, clicker train, throw his frisbee. As I said in my previous post, it was after we stopped pushing so hard and relaxed that he started to relax as well and we made progress more quickly without having to try so hard.

As idir - and indeed our vet and various trainers said to us, so many dogs in his situation would have been pts and he was loved, happy and healthy which is so much more than many dogs ever have.

Thanks moose. That's exactly it. Thankfully, Jas is very people friendly (almost too friendly, as if his nerves make him super submissive). He will ignore dogs that ignore him. I just wish he would use a more obvious signal to approaching dogs, rather than just pretending he can't see them. If he put his hackles up and growled, for example, at least everyone would know the score. Or bark! But nope. He pretends they're not there, wags his tail, sniffs around, turns his head (which I realise are all appeasing behaviours, but they are subtle and don't scream 'Go away' like a growl) and then turns on them when they dare to sniff him. More than one dog means that he panics and tries to run away, but one dog on its own he will try to chase off. He's better on lead because I spent the mortgage on sausages to treat him every time we passed another dog, so he looked at me instead of reacting.

chickens - we took our dog on realising that we might never get to let her off on a normal walk - not due to fear aggression, but because she's probably a failed worker and ended up in the pound 3 times before the rescue got her - so the view was that she probably had very high prey drive and probably escapology added into the mix. She would still have got a lot from going out on walks - we walked her in a harness on a longish lead for 2 months before letting her off - she bounced about like a mad thing and mad it very obvious that she would have loved to get off, but being out was much better for her than just being off in the garden.

Chickens it sounds like it's some of the other dogs round your way that could do with going to canine communication classes if they are ignoring his calming signals. I hate it when that happens - he is doing everything right, but the other dog doesn't 'speak dog' and pushes him beyond his limits, then it's your dog that gets the blame.

I do think a couple of sessions with someone like the people I linked to would be really beneficial - have you watched the video I linked to? They do it in a very controlled way and have 'teaching dogs' who are brilliant at communication skills and lead the way for the dog that has the problem.

I am full of admiration for people who can commit to trying to change their dog's behaviour even to the detriment of their own lives. As I say, if I had tried everything and the dog was causing me stress and affecting my mental wellbeing, for the sake of my children and family I would either rehome or pts as appropriate.