Out of my depth with a rescue dog- Muzzle? Desperate!

[CaptainHoratioWragge]

We have had our rescue for 3 months and just don't know what to do.

It was rehomed from a friend. She took it in as it would otherwise have been put down. We don't know the history but it has obviously had a very troubled early life, lots of homes, also we think it has been hit with a mop or a brush as if we try and get either of these out the dog tries to get under the sofa.

The dog is incredibly loving and comfortable with us, but if ANY stranger tries to stroke it, it tries to nip them. It is also extremely aggressive towards other dogs.

Walks at the moment consist of trying to drag our dog away from other dogs constantly as it walks backbwards still trying to bite/snarl at them even after we have passed them and keeping an eye of for anyone who might try and stroke/touch the dog and constantly having to cross the road etc if anyone with a kid on a bike etc come past.

It is very very stressful and i'm constantly frightened it will bite someone/ someone's dog.

I'm often in tears at the thought of taking him out.

The dog trainer thinks a muzzle would be bad as it would stop him developing - we give him treats when he for example walks past a dog without reacting etc to try and reduce his fear and teach hime more positive behaviour and a muzzle would stop this being possible, and we would be let with a dog in his current condition with no hope of developement.

I understand her point but I don't know how much longer i can go on like this.

Twice the dog HAS bit another dog, once when four dogs off lead ran up and I couldn't keep him (on lead) away from all four at once, if we moved away we were moving into the path of one of the others iyswim, and once when he managed to someone shrug out of his collar (was on a choke at the time so don't know how he did this).

I think we were naive in thinking that with love and care we could help the dog, but in three months of working hard with him the aggression and people nipping haven't really improved at all.

Financially we don't have any spare cash, we have spend what we have on a dog trainer, but a behaviourist has been suggested that wants another £320 to come and see him, honestly if we had it we would spend it, but before getting paid on friday we had £12 in the bank account last monday to last until then.

I feel at least if he had a muzzle on he couldn't physically bite anyone/thing which would make me less frightened as honestly now I don't think I could always stop this happeneing BUT the thought of the dog being like this for another 10+ years is just horrifying. We would never be able to 'enjoy' a walk with him, take him anywhere etc.

Honestly, would you give up at this point and muzzle?

I would muzzle him. I wouldn't throw money I didn't have on a behaviourist away either.

I am not one of the MN doggy "experts", so could be giving poor advice.

I expect the family of the child he is going to bite would thank you for it though.

Oh, I thought this was in chat, as I am sure I hid The Doghouse

Sorry, the experts will be along in a moment

I agree with AF, but await to be flamed.

Anyfucker, yes that is exactly my fear.

I feel the trainer is able to say this as they wouldn't be the ones responsible for the dog and the fallout if it did bite someone.

It has got to the point where i literally run the other way with him if there is any sign of a pushchair/bike etc.

ffs have the thing put to sleep before it tears some poor kid's face apart.

I'm not a doggy expert but have you tried using the 'look at me' command?

The theory is you use treats to reward dog for stopping, sitting and looking at you. Start off in the house, then garden etc working up to using it whilst on walks. Done properly it is supposed to break the dogs attention from 'scary' stuff before it becomes a problem.

I really hope you find a solution. We had a rescue dog who was great but had numerous issues. He was making good progress but when we had ds it sent him over the edge - became aggressive to everyone. When he got ds's hand in his mouth (no damage thank god) enough was enough and the dog had to go. Horrible emotional horrendous decision to make and has really put me off getting another rescue dog in the future.

really kitsonkittkat?

We have been taught a similar thing- using his name rather than 'look at me' but otherwise seems the same.

It works sometimes but not at others- the problem is we have to spot the problem before he does- if we do and we can distract him it does work,turn and walk away and diffuse things before he goes ballistic, if we can't distract him, eg the other dog is coming in the opposite direction so they will pass each other, our dog acts as if we dont exist- just completely blanks our voices comands etc until he has finished reacting and then as soon as it is over starts obeying us again.

Alfie your thing about the baby pushing him ove the edge really frightens me for the future.

I'm not an expert, but a muzzle has the potential to make fear aggression massively worse...you've got a dog that it is scared and trying to protect itself, putting on a muzzle makes it less able to protect itself and increases the fear.

The two times he has bitten other dogs...well 4 dogs shouldn't be approaching an on lead dog, tbh I'd forgive him that one.

Why do you have him on a choke chain though? They're really easy to get out of and don't give any more control than any other collar. They don't stop dogs who want to pull doing that either.

If it was me, I'd be getting a headcollar, asking friends with bombproof dogs for help to de-sensetise him and sorry, but getting a behavourist.

get rid of the horrid choke chain. use a harness type one so you have more control.
Not surprised he turned on 4 loose dogs, probably felt under threat.
We had a dog who was scared of a mop, had to desensitise him to it. Used to get it out and leave it on floor, so he could sniff at it etc
Why not try a behaviourist

Thanks, Tabulah possibly this is why the trainer is so anti the muzzle then. I do worry that he will be like this (or worse) forever if I use one.

The choke was bought on the recomendation from the trainer.

At first we bought a normal collar and also a gentle leader but she said we needed him on a choke at all times. I do worry that he managed to get out of it and that he might again. (still don't understand how, it seems really tight when he's straining?)

I do know what you mean about the behaviourist because to be honest all the training he has had means he now sits, lies, waits, etc perfectly but hasn't actually made any behavioural improvements.

I'm begining to wonder if we ought to have paid our money towards a behaviourist rather than a trainer from the start, and perhaps we stop this training and start saving up for a behaviourist, but what to do till then?!

This morning we walked him at 5:30am to be sure we wouldn't have an incident but we can't really do that every morming.

not a good trainer if they recommend a choke chain.

Captain - it was horrible and has left me with quite a lot of guilt tbh. I think we were very naive when we took on a rescue dog, especially because we didn't know his history. We just thought we wanted a dog and it would be a nice thing to do to rehouse a poor abandoned dog. The reality is so different. Rescue dogs need so much more attention, training and loving. We paid a lot of money for a behaviourist to see him before the baby arrived to try and help him overcome his issues. I worked with him numerous times every day but when the baby came he just freaked out. Every time the baby moved or made a noise he would go mental. He wouldn't let anyone in the house (even close family) so we had to keep him on a lead in the house if we had visitors. If the midwife came DH had to take the dog for a walk so we could talk to the midwife with no barking in the next room! He got to the point where he was attacking me and DH as well as close family. But I accept that a lot of his behavioural faults were out fault - we didn't have the capabilities to teach him better. We tried our best and it wasn't enough.

That said, I guess all rescue dogs are different as they have different backgrounds. It may have been that our dog had a bad connection to babies in his past. But I wouldn't wish it on anyone. He was a big part of our family and pre-baby he was a great dog and we had a lot of fun as a family.

Good luck, I hope you have a totally different experience to us :)

I appreciate the feedback on the four dog thing- perhaps i'm judging him too harshly on that one.

The other one when he got out of the choke he did literally run up to another dog and bite it (a rhodesian ridgeback sp?) the other dog literally did nothing!

Gosh, trainer also banned use of harness saying it faciliated pulling and a choke was the only answer.

I'm beginning to think we haven't perhaps been gettig the best advice.

x post with Kilmuir about the advice

Personally I don't like harnesses because with a strong dog they can really get a good grip and pull you along too. Lots of people do get on fine with them though.

With a headcollar even the most determined dog would struggle a bit to get a good enough pull to drag a person - and you have control of the bit of the dog you want to keep out of the way.

Chokes are easy to get out of because...some dogs have heads not that much bigger than their neck to start with, lol and one twist or shake will make them loose again - good for not strangling your dog, not so good for keeping hold of a dog who's trying to get away. I had dogs before choke chains were unpopular, I gave up on them - most dogs seem to either not care that they get tighter or to not realize that it's the pulling that's making them uncomfortable.

Training's important in that you need him to be focussed on you - but that's only going to do so much without sorting out the fact that he is scared.

What about the halti/ dogmatic head collar. Works well on my Danes

I am on my third aggressive dog from rescue. The first is the worst aftermath that you have your strategies.

Firstly I think you are doing way toooooo much, you have had him a tiny amount of time and have trained him well but are still finding out about his external triggers for aggression.

I would avoid dogs for a while and get back to doing stuff where he focuses on you, the better this is the easier when you decide to venture within sight of dogs. When you do don't try to meet head on, especially if yours is on lead and they are off lead as it will invariably go wrong.

I wonder whether you are walking him in parks etc? Avoid unless pissing down or very early or late... Whatever the reasons for his aggression he will be on high alert all walk. Get out on pavements, unpopular field walks and prize routes with good sight lines.

With a head collar and a route that goes on pavements rather than parks there is no need for you to meet other dogs, you just have to cross the road a bit but passing dogs on the other side of the road can be part of training, eventually you can get nearer.

I don't know any trainers or behaviourists who recommend chokes, really outdated. A gentle leader is perfect as with practice the head of the dog can be pulled in and down towards you if another dog approaches. You may be able to introduce a muzzle without trauma, one of mine loved it and would bring it before a walk the current beastie wouldn't care for it. There are good leather, breed specific muzzles online that they can eat and drink through, no need for it to be a problem for reward based training. If your dog is snappy with people not just dogs then you need to be confident with head collar or muzzle. Harnesses I find unhelpful as in extremis it is the head you need to control!

Three months n with a rescue is nothing, home life going well so that is a big positive. You may find other training that is super cheap, look round for agility, flybLl, citizenship classes and call and explain the circumstances. Often you can be accommodated on your dogs terms and for a few pounds a session you get to deal with nervous aggression and socialise gently.

Dont be afraid to tell other owners to keep their dogs away, not unreasonable at all. But generally keep yourself out of the way, distracting, changing direction frequently not once your dog has seen another and is already unsettled.

Am not a behaviourist of any sort but the stuff above is what I have found helpful whilst I have been preparing mine for more behavioural input.

He is scared, which when cornered he turns to aggression.

OK so no harness but maybe try the head collar again? If i could be sure he
couldn't get away I would at least feel less at risk when walking him.

It is really useful you explained how he got out of the choke, thanks, i somehow didn't understand this and it has made me feel really at risk with him.

Still not sure how to overcome problems with the groups of dogs off lead though. Some owners are really good and if they see i'm struggling, call theirs back, but some are miles away, on phone etc and I can't really rely on other people to get me out of trouble.

Sounds like i should perhaps stop the trainer, save the money towards a behavourist and maybe i do need to walk him really early and late until then to try and avoid these situations.

Alfie's story is a bit scary, although i appreciate all dogs are different and i don't really feel yet we have given ours the help it needs (sounds like you really, did, though Alfie)

Honestly, do you think it is worth trying?
Do dogs who are this messed up get better?

I wouldn't muzzle him. I have the same issue. You need to speak to a dog behaviourist with a doggy daycare facility.
My dog is just like yours, the behaviourist had him for one day when I picked him up he was in a room off the lead with thirty other dogs.
He now goes to daycare once a week... It's a confidence/ protective thing. Is he a terrier.
What area are you in? It might be worth speaking to the people who have my dog.
He is not perfect on walks by all means but is getting a lot lot better.
What area are you in and what breed is he? I'd love to help.
He goes once a week and it 20 pounds and I email her for free with any concerns I have. It's changed all our lives, I truely beloved I may have to rehome him when my baby comes, now I feel confident we will be able to walk with baby in a sling and him on a extendable lead.
Id love to share my experience and help of I can.

Also put a extenable lead on him, no choke collar. Maybe look into thunder shirts for him, and anti anxeity tablets.
Also tire him out before you take him walkies.
If you see another dog, rather than
Walk away from it- follow it. Even if you are thirty feet away. Follow it until he calms down.
When he's calm- go home. It sounds ridiculous- but it works!!

x post with Beancurd we live in London, and where we are the choice is parks with lots of other dogs or whole walk on pavement which hadn't really occured to us as being fair, but perhaps this would be the best thing for a while as you suggest.

I had a look at muzzles on amazon last night and they all seemed impossible to eat/reward with- if you could remember a name or type i could google that would be incredibly helpful

Also- if your dog is on a lead and bites another dog/person your not as unresponsable as you think- you have restrained your dog!! Others should see your dog on a lead and realise there is a issue and respond responsibly and respectfully!

pickles that sounds brilliant.
we are in south london.
does that mean your dog is now ok out and about with other dogs?