Out of my depth with a rescue dog- Muzzle? Desperate!

[CaptainHoratioWragge]

We have had our rescue for 3 months and just don't know what to do.

It was rehomed from a friend. She took it in as it would otherwise have been put down. We don't know the history but it has obviously had a very troubled early life, lots of homes, also we think it has been hit with a mop or a brush as if we try and get either of these out the dog tries to get under the sofa.

The dog is incredibly loving and comfortable with us, but if ANY stranger tries to stroke it, it tries to nip them. It is also extremely aggressive towards other dogs.

Walks at the moment consist of trying to drag our dog away from other dogs constantly as it walks backbwards still trying to bite/snarl at them even after we have passed them and keeping an eye of for anyone who might try and stroke/touch the dog and constantly having to cross the road etc if anyone with a kid on a bike etc come past.

It is very very stressful and i'm constantly frightened it will bite someone/ someone's dog.

I'm often in tears at the thought of taking him out.

The dog trainer thinks a muzzle would be bad as it would stop him developing - we give him treats when he for example walks past a dog without reacting etc to try and reduce his fear and teach hime more positive behaviour and a muzzle would stop this being possible, and we would be let with a dog in his current condition with no hope of developement.

I understand her point but I don't know how much longer i can go on like this.

Twice the dog HAS bit another dog, once when four dogs off lead ran up and I couldn't keep him (on lead) away from all four at once, if we moved away we were moving into the path of one of the others iyswim, and once when he managed to someone shrug out of his collar (was on a choke at the time so don't know how he did this).

I think we were naive in thinking that with love and care we could help the dog, but in three months of working hard with him the aggression and people nipping haven't really improved at all.

Financially we don't have any spare cash, we have spend what we have on a dog trainer, but a behaviourist has been suggested that wants another £320 to come and see him, honestly if we had it we would spend it, but before getting paid on friday we had £12 in the bank account last monday to last until then.

I feel at least if he had a muzzle on he couldn't physically bite anyone/thing which would make me less frightened as honestly now I don't think I could always stop this happeneing BUT the thought of the dog being like this for another 10+ years is just horrifying. We would never be able to 'enjoy' a walk with him, take him anywhere etc.

Honestly, would you give up at this point and muzzle?

He is by no means perfect- but its better. Never in a million years would i muzzle him
Now. His extenable lead allows him to gain confidence.
We are in west Sussex and we use Amy hatcher at Dooley dogs. They have a website- I can't recommend them enough. You should give her a call- I'm sure she could recommend someone in your area.

They improve I don't think all can be turned to super sociable ones. You change your expectations, I do my big walks early, late or on pavements. There are doggy places I never take mean dog to as it is too much.

At the moment your walks must be terrifying you have a dog you can't control, who bites without provocation and can slip his lead! Reducing these dangers makes life better, head collar sorts the lead issue, you can double clip to a neck collar too if you feel better! Avoiding off lead dog places sorts the flash points and all the time work on control improving. Honestly you are in such early days. My new one is awful, give her a year and she will be fab. My ten stone meanie will never be fab, she is nervous but even underneath this she is just mean! I can't trust her with dogs she I scared with or comfortable with! She is old, she can live put her days avoiding other dogs oth than mine.

I second Doggy Daycare My friends dog was very dog aggressive and it did wonders.

Not happy with your behaviourist, the choking will add to the dogs sense of fear.

Sounds like you adore your dog, I'm sure you will get through this

"At the moment your walks must be terrifying you have a dog you can't control, who bites without provocation and can slip his lead!"

This, unfortunately describes my life at the moment to a T.

Thanks for all the advice, I am much in need of it and it is appreciated.

I have emailed Dooley Dogs, to see about a recomendataion, and I will stop the trainer to save up the money to afford it.

Today I will take him out with head collar on, and stick to pavements only & hopefully that will keep us safe today.

Really appreciate the advice that 3 months isn't very long- it seems like forever as it is so stressful at the moment but will persevere.

www.doodleydogs.co.uk/

Haven't had time to read all the thread so sorry if repeating etc

BAT will work on reactive dogs - very easy to do and works quickly. link here

I would muzzle BUT introduce the muzzle carefully and DO NOT only use it when the dog is meeting other dogs. If you do it becomes the trigger to the dog getting stressed. We play muzzle games with reactive rescue dogs in our centre. We teach them to push with the muzzle and it then becomes a great game to push a football around and the muzzle is then a fun object.

APDT trainers will help you with BAT Grisha Stewart and no need for large behaviourists bills. I would be careful about doggy care until your dog can deal with dogs better - it can make some dogs much worse if they are thrown into the deep end before they are ready.

You poor thing. It sounds very stressful for you.

I agree with Cuebill that a muzzle can be used but you need to take it slowly, if you move too quickly it will increase his fear. Basket muzzles are the ones you need to be looking for.

The incident with the four off lead dogs was their fault, not yours.

Ditch the choker or use it on the trainer before you ditch her too

Don't use an extendable lead. They will not give you the control you need over a dog like this. Don't use any trainer who claims to be able to take the dog away and train it for you. You need to be trained as much as the dog does.

I've also heard good things about BAT.

I'm shocked at the quote you were given for a behaviourist. Decent ones around here charge around £60 - £80 per session, which includes a free follow up session and on going email support. I'd be very shocked to find that trainers down south charge more than double than they do up here, have a look at the APDT site linked to earlier and find a trainer in your area.

Some insurers cover costs for behaviorists if you are referred by a vet, so that is worth looking into. A trip to the vet might be helpful anyway, they might be able to suggest some meds or DAP treatment that might help to calm your dog while you are training with him.

And wrt the comments made about rescue dogs all having an unknown past and issues - this is bullshit. I foster for a rescue.

We've known all of our dogs histories. The one I have now has a few issues. Any potential adopter would made fully aware of these issues before the adoption and would be advised on what we have been doing to manage/train these issues. They'd also be offered full on going support from the rescue, for the entire life of the dog. All decent rescues do this, they also assess the dogs and the homes and try to match them appropriately. All decent rescues offer behavioral support for free. Many work with foster homes to give families a clearer picture of what they are taking on.

Too many people mistake pounds for rescues. They are not the same thing. A pound does not home check, they don't assess the dogs, they don't offer any support after adoption.

Hundreds of well loved, well trained, ishoo free family pets enter into rescue every year because of marital breakdowns, loss of the family home, emigration, sickness of the owners/their children and many more reasons. Don't over look these dogs because of what you read on the internet. Rescuing a dog is far more rewarding and safer than buying a puppy, whose temprement has not yet developed.

Disagree 100% about not using a extendable. The idea of them is for control, and confidence.
You can also get like a spring attachment which acts as a shock absorber between collar and lead, about two pound from pets at home. Great on your arms.
Obviously don't buy a cheap extender, you'll need a heavy duty one,

Hopefully Amy is able to help

It is early days, enjoy your successes at home and go gently towards the future.

BAT is fab. Headcollers are fab, will see if I can find the muzzle site if you feel you need it but having the head by you and under control is reassuring.

You need to get your confidence up before you try the harder stuff:)

If your dog is very reactive I wouldn't attempt doggy daycare ... there are dogs out there who would be so stressed they shut down or who would chew their way through the residents! That kind of socialization would come later on advice of a behaviourist.

There is a useful article by Grisha Stewart on muzzles here which includes a video of how to get a dog used to wearing a muzzle. (Grisha is mentioned upthread, she is the person who developed BAT).

Do NOT use an extending lead...for an unsocialised,fear aggressive dog,they are a big no no.You really do not have the control.They are also extremely dangerous...people have amputated fingers,dogs have broken necks,have been run over..my dog is recovering from a 6 inch cheese wire cut to his side,when he jumped out of the way of 2 aggressive dogs attached to these awful things.They also do nothing for leash manners and encourage a dog to pull even more.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on that bear. I'm sorry to hear about your dog- I should stress I believe they should only be used if you've been shown how to use it properly with your dogs issues. As I say ours worked fantastically- but we were shown to use it properly. Will your dog be okay?

Yes he will be fine...but so avoidable.Most people do not use them correctly and a fully extended flexi lead attached to an out of control dog in a park,where there are children and dogs running aroung freely,is dangerous.

I see what you mean. I never have mine fully extended when I can either see a dog in view or know I have a chance of one being near. Mind you my dog is either a changed man or growing up now, he wags his tail on the way to daycare. Lovely to see, he's been invited on the agility team (proud mummy) but as I say I do not and never will trust him fully off the lead on a walk.
Glad your pooch will be okay

I feel for you, I really do. I have worked with damaged dogs for years professionally although I am not a trainer but a fosterer.

I know it's tough as you clearly think a lot of the dog but I would rehome him to someone without so much else on as you. The dog needs one to one attention to try and bring it round. It takes ages and a lot of your time and even then is not always successful. Paying a dog trainer will not work with serious problems of a deep seated and long standing nature. It isn't intensive enough.

You will not have failed. The person who made him like that is responsible for that. You are clearly a kind hearted person that wanted to help and instead of getting a fun family dog ended up with someone else's broken basket case.

So sorry for the dog too.

However, I think time to admit defeat and either pass the dog to its respective breed rescue association where specialists and single minded rehabers can try to fix it or if a cross breed try small local rehoming charities who will accept him warts and all and who often have equally committed people working for them. Last resort is putting him to sleep. Not so cruel as you think. He is clearly a very unhappy dog if so anxious and there are worse things than a peaceful end.

Good luck, it's a horrible thing I know but you can't carry on like this. Someone is going to get hurt.

I have had more time now to read this thread and totally disagree with the last poster. Someone will not get hurt with correct management also APDT trainers can all deal with this type of behaviour fact.

A muzzle would work but what would give you more control would be a head collar, then you can always direct the head away from other dogs if they come up to you off lead.

Do contact APDT or if you want to PM me I can put you in touch with a trainer near you. This is hard but there are ways to make it easier for you to manage this and is definitely not the end of the road for your dog.

Well said, Cuebill.

Thanks everyone for the feedback.

I went a bit quieteafter reading RCbeanbag post as it rattled me a bit- mainly the idea that the anxiety might mean that putting him to sleep is kinder. The last thing I want to do is cause the dog to suffer.

Having thought about it, and talked to my DH, I really don't think the dog is unhappy. He is always desperately excited to get out for a walk, tail wagging, jumping about etc.

I think it is making me unhappy, but not the dog!

I also feel that a lot of people have given up on this dog and let it down and i don't want to give up until i've tried everything, which i don't believe i have yet.

My dh has walked the dog for me the last couple of days which has helped give me a break and calm me down a bit (both biting incidents were with me, not him, so he is not as anxious about it all as me)

I've got his gentle leader back on him and I do feel less at risk of him slipping his collar again. I think i'm going to also walk him exclusively on pavements for a bit, as suggested, as i'm not sure meeting packs of other dogs is a good idea. Some walkers here have 5 or 6 dogs off lead in the park and i don't feel safe, even with the head collar.

On tuesday i emailed both Doodley dogs asking for a recomendation and i also emailed a local trainer off the APDT website. I haven't heard back from either yet.

Cuebill thanks for your message, I have pmd you my location in case you know anyone good near me.

my dog has some fear aggression problems towards other dogs because she has been poorly socialised as a puppy. hrr main problem is seeing a dog walking past her or coming towards her, she hates other dogs to be eyeballing her. i find that she has no problem walking with other dogs, she is able to walk beside them on or offlead with no problems. im not really well placed to offer you advise but might be worth bearing in mind that maybe is the dogs coming toward him head on he doesnt like? my dog is a tibetan terrier though so easily controlled!