snapping dog

[LeBFG]

First time posting here! Our rehomed dog is pretty good in general. We've had him 3 years now. Apart from an initial habit of chasing cats, he is fine in many ways and good with children. But he gets really defensive over bones and growls us off. If we insist on taking the bone away (if he's stolen it!) he'll snap and snarl and once attacked DH's boot. This was OK, as I reasoned the bone protection thing is a pretty deeply ingrained behaviour response and it was just as easy to avoid these situations.

The problem has gone up a level though. Yesterday DH wanted Jack out of the car - Jack refused. DH went to grab his scruff - Jack bit him! I'm still in shock as I write this. DH kicked him out after this and off we went on our family outing.... What can we do? Up until now I've trusted him with 14mo DS. Now not so sure. Any ideas/similar stories/solutions would be most welcome.

We have been taught to offer something else really yummy in place is say bone, tell him to leave once he looks up show him the treat hopefully he will go for it and you can remove stollen goods. He may have bitten your dh in fear?? New to dog ownership but learnt so much on here and from training and more training

My initial thoughts are first if he is snappy, treat his personal space with respect, and second never force a dog to do anything. He has to want to do it - so bribe him. Think about it, if you didn't want to go somewhere, and someone grabbed your arm and dragged you, you probably dig your heels and and get mad. If you were offered hard cash, or chocolate cake.... hmmmm... See what I'm getting at!

So if you need to take something off him, offer him a top rated treat - chicken skin, smelly sausage, etc. If you want him to get out of the car, hold a similar value treat just out of his reach, and call him out. He'll follow the treat.

Difficult dogs have their weaknesses, it's just a case of finding out what they are. A particular food, a tennis ball, a squeaky toy. Once you've worked out what your dog's is, training will become easier.

Goes without saying, never ever leave any dog unsupervised with a 14mo, especially not one with a reactive side. Dogs are unpredictable, you just don't know what they might do.

Jack tends to snap more at DP than me. It IS when we want him to do something he doesn't want to do. I think he feels more threatened by DP and I will often do what you're suggesting (bribes etc) rather than confronting Jack bad-temperly.

Still...bit surprising turn of character. I would have trusted him whole heartedly with DS - DS even sneaks to his food bowl and picks up his biscuits and eats them whilst Jack eats. Jack completely ignores him.

The bone is difficult - there isn't anything he would rather have. So we throw the bones to a distance and give him his space. But for the car - yes, any food in general would suffice to get him out.

Thanks for the tips.

LeBFG that sounds really difficult to deal with and you must be quite shocked by it. I hope your DP is okay.

Grabbing a dog by the scruff of its neck or its collar is a real no-no and many dogs will bite in those circumstances.

If you think about it, the neck is quite a vulnerable area and you wouldn't like it if someone came up and grabbed you by the neck. Next time try some more gentle persuasion such as luring him with a treat. Also taking bones away from him is teaching him to be defensive about them because in future he will know that you might be going to take them away. It sounds like you need to teach a drop it and a leave it command. Leave it is for when the thing is still on the ground, and drop it is for when he has already got it in his mouth.

Leave it is a fun one to teach because there comes a point when the dog realizes that so long as it keeps leaving it, it will get an endless supply of treats! Have one treat that you are not going to give to the dog (the one it has to leave), and a supply of a different kind of treat to use as a reward. Show the dog the first treat, say leave it and take it away before he has chance to get it, then immediately say 'good boy' and give one of the other treats. Gradually build up so that it is harder for him - e.g. put the treat on the floor but still near you, then put it on the floor but near him, and so on. Over time you'll be able to put very tempting treats down and say leave it, and he will.

There are different ways to teach drop it. One starts with nothing in the dogs mouth at all, but when you say 'drop it' you drop treats on the floor. Point the treats out to him with your finger (so that he is used to your hand being nearby). Drop several treats at a time so that he has to hunt for them and you can show him where they are. Once he starts looking to the floor when you say drop it, start practising when he has something in his mouth, like a toy. (something not too valuable to him to begin with - don't start with a bone!). He will automatically drop the toy to pick up the treats. To begin with, don't pick up the toy, just ignore it. Then over time you can begin to pick the toy up, and also build up to harder things for him to drop. I think it's actually quite hard for a dog to drop something that it has in its mouth.

Another way to teach drop it is to have something in your hand that is more interesting to the dog; it has to drop the thing in its mouth to get the one you have. The dog learns that when it drops something, it gets something more exciting instead, and so there is nothing for it to be defensive about.

The basic principle is one of using positive reinforcement to train the dog, rather than forcing it to do things. The risk with forcing things, as you've learned, is that the dog might react badly. When there is a small child around, however well you trust the dog, it's still very important to supervise closely.

All the above is great but this incident does you a favour in reminding you not to 'trust' your dog with your child. Keep children away from bowls and beds especially whilst little...the 14 month to 3 year bit is when it is most likely to go wrong. All dogs should get to eat and relax in peace.

Sorry I do sound super patronizing it just leapt out at me that your dog's behaviour is very normal and easy to resolve but your expectations overly high for a dog.

I have had little children and lots of rescues and experience has made me more careful, more determined to train the children and respect the limits of the dogs.

No, you're not being patronizing bath . You have a very good point - I probably DO have high expectations for a family dog. I had two fantastic dogs I grew up with and with whom I could do anything. Never snapped, never anything other than lovely cuddleness (but then I was a quiet child and never bounced on them etc).

We've definately come to the conclusion that Jack can have his 'private space' with his bones. This will now be extended to feed time too. With other food items he nicks, I've successfully used the positive reinforcement method outlined so well by Redwing (thanks so much!). Same with the cat chasing actually now I think about it.

The car issue I can see can be resolvable in a few days with a bit of pos training, so I'm not TOO worried. I suppose, as each problem arises, I need to thiink of a way of training him out of it.

Any ideas to stop him chasing the post man/passing cars? Can't even think how I might do this. The cats were always close enough that he could get used to them whilst on a lead. The chasing car thing is fine as long as Jack is close by - if he happens to be out of reach, off he shoots and I'm totally powerless to stop him.

LeBGF,

It is harder with an older dog, but I think teaching a dog that you control resources, whether it is a bone, his bed or a ball is key. Otherwise you might see the same problem of aggression and lack of leadership crop up in different forms.

I see this with the pups. Mum could take their toys and nip them into behaving well and they sat quietly, letting her do it. Now, our neighbour's dog definitely let's the pup know who is boss. He has no problem taking bones or balls off the pup and the pup fully understands, no way would he growl or even attempt to resource guard against my neighbour's dog!

We have trained our girl dog, puppy and the neighbour's dog so that we can take the bone or ball from their mouth. You have to be able to trust your dog to not bite you under any circumstance, whether it be over a bone, ball, bed, personal space or an accidental trod on a tail.

Our puppy is very food driven and when he got his first bone, he went grrr when dh tried to take it away. DH just pinned him down with one arm, pup squealed and then stopped. Dh let him go and then gave him back the bone. A few minutes later, dh took the bone again, not a sound. Puppy sat quietly. Dh offered him the bone back. Pup licked his hand and took it. Never had a problem since.

With the older neighbour's dog it was a bit harder, as he had never been trained. But we persisted (never with treats, as we never had them at hand) and now I can open his mouth, take the bone, feel his gums and he totally accepts it as normal.

My dh is much more 'hands on' with the dogs and has no problem letting them know who is boss and they adore him!

Ooh, glad to see you're method worked Flatbread. It also fits more with my DH who is more 'hands on'. Persistance is key. Interesting about the pup. In the wild, submissive pack animals will guard fiercely and jealously their food share, even against dominant males....which is why I thought about giving Jack his space with bones. Weirdly, he guards more with DH around. I've pulled a stolen bagette slowly out of Jack's mouth before without a single protest - and then given a bit back to reward him, so I know he is 'capable'.

I guess what I'm saying is he's a bit unpredictable and generally more so around DH. I wonder what a dog-shrink would say? I remember dog shrinks were all the rage 15 years ago or so...whatever happened to them?

This is a public forum and you can choose which advice to take but I strongly do not advise you to pin your dog to the ground and remove a bone. This is highly old fashioned outdated and dangerous advice.

Dogs do not need to know who is boss, or alpha male etc. I am prepared for the normal backlash that Flatbread has given to other posters but I will not get involved.

Good books to read are:

Karen Pryor Don't shot the dog
Jean Donaldson Culture Clash
In Defence of the Dog John Bradshaw
Dominance in Dogs Barry Eaton

All of these books will explain the danger and how ridiculous it is to try to dominate a dog and the damage it can do. They also tell of the correct way to deal with the issues in this thread safely and to the benefit of owner and the dog.

Dogs shrinks went out of business because they all talked rubbish. You can speak to a qualified behavourist and they will ALL (if qualified) tell you NOT to follow Flatbreads out of date methods.

Taking a bone or a ball off a dog is not showing who is boss - It just shows who wants the ball most.

To remove a bone from a puppy replace it with another bone - why is a dog jittery when you approach to take the bone it is because they know you are removing it. So if everytime you approach they get better things very very quickly they relax and will give you anything you want because you can be trusted to give them a good time. Make a habit of ADDING food to a dogs bowl teach them a human hand is a good thing not something that they need to worry about.

However if everytime you pin them to the floor and frighten them they will either depending on the dog up the fight to keep the item so more growling barking and maybe biting or they will run away from you as you approach, or they will hide when they are with bones or toys of high value.

Ah, herbertjane, are you snoopykline with a new name? Interesting that there are all the dog 'experts' around, who seem to talk with great fanaticism about stuffing a dog with treats, no matter what. Oh, he growls, give him treats...or he bites, give him treats, or he does something naughty, distract him with treats...

Never seen these 'experts' ask any questions or share experiences about their own dogs, as is the point of forums like mumsnet. They hang around desperately waiting to impart their enormous pearls of wisdom (which consists of stuffing the dog with treats for all issues) and make derogatory remarks to people who do things differently. Seem a sad bunch (or perhaps it is one poster who changes names whenever they seem to have lost credibility under one guise)

Well I am nooooo expert but my rescues have all been over ten stone and six foot on hind legs. Wouldn't have fingers (hands, arms, anything?) left had I used the flatbread way.

Use positive all the way and end up with very compliant dogs when it comes to handling, walking, food removal etc. Some weren't even vaguely compliant at the start.

I think the 'experts' here just reflect the mainstream dog training techniques endorsed by welfare orgs etc. Haven't met an old school trainer in years. Chatting to a police trainer the other day and was surprised at how new school he was too.

Nope not SnoopKnine although we were both educated together and have the same qualifications in dog behaviour and training issues. She had to leave these posts due to your aggressive posting. She asked me to look in as she was worried about the very dangerous advice that was given out on the threads.

This is our business and we are professionals so do not need to ask for dog advice although usually we get charged for giving out advice however on mn you just get insulted

I can share loads of experiences with you if you like. I have trained hundreds of dogs and own 7. All rescues with "issues" so deal with training issues on a daily basis.

I always feel the threads that say "with my dog" are not always helpful as if the dog is not the same as "your dog" it will not help

Havingabath, I maintain that there is no one way to bringing up a child or a dog or any living creature. All children and pets are different and have their own personality.

The point of mumsnet is for people to to be able to share their experiences, without so-called experts shouting down others and saying that anyone who does things differently is mistreating their dogs.

Of course we all use positive training methods but some of us also draw boundaries. I personally am not scared of my dogs. They will not bite off my arm or leg, because they trust and respect me. I don't need to stuff them with treats for them to like me, or obey me. They are happy, content and well-adjusted dogs.

Others can do it differently fine, but there is no need to get hysterical about it...it gets tiring listening to some of the righteous rants here, and IMO, really lowers the quality of the discussion because no one is allowed to say anything different from these so called experts.

We used a similar approach to the one Flatbread described when our Westie was a pup. Now she's perfectly behaved if we have to remove something from her grip. I don't know if it's because she's generally easy-going/submissive or because she learned something but it worked for her (and us). With our new pup I'm trying to used mostly positive (stinky liver treats) reinforcement (about 95% of the time with the odd "NO" if I catch her mid-act) but I don't feel like it's enough sometimes. She has a much stronger personality and is far more active and curious..there are plenty of times when I need her to stop doing something and giving her treat does not feel like the right way to go about it .

I agree with herbertjane. Please don't pin the dog to the ground and prise a bone from its jaw. It might result in a(nother) dog bite.

There is some great advice on preventing dog bites here, including a podcast with Victoria Stillwell. There's also some useful material here at doggonesafe which might be useful in teaching your little one more about dogs.

Flatbread, the reason so many people suggest positive reinforcement training is because it works. Personally, I think it's great that there are lots of dog experts on here. I've learnt a lot from them and been very grateful for their advice.

Positive training is not all about giving treats at all. Positive training is looking at how dogs learn and building on that.

Dogs will repeat a behaviour is it is rewarded or pleasurable. Hence the use of rewards. If a dog is doing unwanted behaviour then ask for a correct behaviour and reward that. The dog over time will offer the correct behaviour as that is more pleasurable and the unwanted behaviour will become extinct as that is not rewarded or pleasurable. The reward can be anything the dogs loves to do, sniff, play with dogs, a toy, a have a big fuss made of it, one of my dogs loves flower pots so that is his reward.

The problem with correction is that "habitation" takes place eg the dog either does not mind the punishment so you have to up the anti or the dog just gets used to it. So if a dog wants to steal some food the reward for stealing the food is greater than the punishment. This has been shown with the use of shock collars to stop a dog that chases. At first the dog will react to the shock, a shy dog will be highly tramatised and shut down, however other dogs will just think that the reward for chasing is better than the shock from the collar. So the owner ups the level of shock until dogs have been thrown off their feet but still the dog chases. To be honest shouting, punishing is dead easy if that was the answer there would be no dogs needing training as all my clients can shout, pull on the lead, hit dogs quite well

Holding a puppy down or pinning it to the ground is abuse. Dogs DO NOT forcably 'alpha roll' each other. When you see dogs pinning one another down they are showing ritualised behaviour where one dog rolls itself over and the other dog 'pins' it down.

There is a great article about Dominance Theory and alpha rolling/pinning down here, the writer is a respected behaviourist and obviously it is endorsed by Victoria Stillwell who is a well known behaviourist who uses positive methods and having once agreed with dominance/pack theory has since come forward and agreed it's tosh.

positively.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=600

If your dog has already felt threatened and bitten/snapped, then one thing is for sure. Pinning him down is even more likely to mean he resorts to biting than the 'average' dog. If your husband wants to bully your dog and get bitten, then try it.

Giving the dog space to eat his food and bones is a great idea. You could try approaching your dog to a safe distance when he has a bone and chucking something yummy in his general direction, maybe eventually progressing to actually going up to your dog and giving him a treat, but never taking the bone away, so that he learns there is no need to growl/snap/bite as nothing is going to be taken. Certainly you are right in making sure your toddler is nowhere near him while he is eating or has anything he sees as high value. he has probably been ok with it because children are small and non threatening, but tbh, in dog terms, your dog would be within it's rights to react and you don't want to put your dog or toddler in that position.

Regarding getting the dog out of the boot, keep a houseline or long lead ont he dog when you put it in the boot, so you can 'pull' him out at a safe distance if needed, but use a command word for the dog to get out fo the boot and give him a treat when he does. Have you considered he's uncomfortable jumping out of the boot? A ramp might help if you think this might be the case. Certainly a vet check wouldn't go amiss.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to see a good behaviourist. You can find one at www.apbc.org.uk but generally work on never physically forcing the dog to do anything, it's asking to be bitten really, but on gaining his trust and teaching him that when he does something you want he gets something out of it too.

Ok. So, for example (sorry, thread hijack OP!) if I'm walking my two dogs together (usually walk them individually but starting to take them out together occasionally), Pup gets very excited and starts leaping on Westie, barking in her face, jumping on her, playing tug of war with her leash. I've been telling her "NO" in a loud, firm voice then asking her to sit (she's very good at this ) and then giving her a treat. That seems to work temporarily and then she walks to heel again, looking at me the whole way. Two minutes later, however, she starts again. She looks (and sounds) quite agressive and snappy when she's doing this and has actually bitten my hand while I've been trying to wrestle her off Westie. Do I then make her sit again and reward her with a treat? (she's not very interested in toys on walks) It then feels to me like I'm (indirectly) rewarding her for the barky/growling behaviour. I should add that when I walk her on her own she's impeccably behaved, walks to heel, great with other dogs and she gets along fine with Westie in the house and on the off-leash trails (her recall is excellent ). Should I perhaps hold off on trying to walk them on-leash together?

I've seen threads on other sites where so called 'dog whispers' do advocate use of electric shock collar things in some extreme cases. I've always considered this totally barbaric (though I have verbally threatened my dog with it if he doesn't listen - he just makes this face ).

I don't know the history on this thread though. I read Flatbread's posts as less extreme than others seemed to have. Apart from the pinning down, I thought she did emphasise pos reinforcement. Interesting links and reading - thanks a lot for posting guys.

A little question: I did hit out once at Jack when training him to stop chasing cats - he was about to literally gobble up our little kitten. I'm sure I hurt myself more than him, but he never as much as sniffed her again. Now, I'm not going to recommend anyone else do this - but sometimes, don't we all get into situations where we have to physically intervene?

The lead idea seems great. THanks for that. It seems to me as if he has decided to sit in the car, 'this is what I want to do and I'm staying' (teenager stylee) rather than being frightened or worried about getting out. I don't think it's any accident he's snappier with DH who is also more physical.

Muddy hijack away

He has not sniffed at her again in your presence but he has not learned a new behaviour. Just that owner goes crazy if we are near the kitten. Bet you he will go for her again (if he wants to) if you are not around

It is not rocket science how to bring up a dog or a child. What you are talking about rewards and punishment is laughably childish..what exact degree to you need to become a so called dog expert?

Just as a dog can decide that it will take the punishment to do whatever it wants, it can also decide to forgo the treat because it prefers something else more exciting. Then what, up the ante with even more exciting dog treats till you are left standing with a freshly butchered pheasant in your hands, pleading with the dog to listen to you and not chase the rabbit?

Dog training is about having the dog understand who is the leader and wanting to obey you because it want to please you. It is about creating calm assertive leadership, nothing to do with treats or punishments. Of course if you are scared of your dog and cannot draw any boundaries, then yes, the only thing left is to either ignore bad behaviour or stuff it with treats and hope it will 'like' you enough.

I don't know why these doghouse threads are full of righteous 'experts' preaching to others what to do. Surely if these so called experts were any good, they would be too busy with their business to be lurking on these forums all the time? Thank god we don't see these type of preachy people too often elsewhere in mumsnet, otherwise we would never have a good discussion on anything.

Yes I agree herbertjane , but doesn't the same argument apply if I had given him treats? He would still do association than real learning, or am I missing something?