snapping dog

[LeBFG]

First time posting here! Our rehomed dog is pretty good in general. We've had him 3 years now. Apart from an initial habit of chasing cats, he is fine in many ways and good with children. But he gets really defensive over bones and growls us off. If we insist on taking the bone away (if he's stolen it!) he'll snap and snarl and once attacked DH's boot. This was OK, as I reasoned the bone protection thing is a pretty deeply ingrained behaviour response and it was just as easy to avoid these situations.

The problem has gone up a level though. Yesterday DH wanted Jack out of the car - Jack refused. DH went to grab his scruff - Jack bit him! I'm still in shock as I write this. DH kicked him out after this and off we went on our family outing.... What can we do? Up until now I've trusted him with 14mo DS. Now not so sure. Any ideas/similar stories/solutions would be most welcome.

LeBFG, in that situation I would try calling the dog nicely in a very happy voice, and/or offering a treat that he had to get out of the car to get. In the long run it's worth teaching a command for it, if you don't have one already. If you do, and the dog was ignoring it, then I guess it just shows that you always have to keep up with some training, even when you've had a dog for a long time.

Ahh, midori, I did say purposely that it would only suit some dogs. I, personally, would never have a large or powerful dog in my home. I understand and accept people have different attitudes to physical things, just like that endless debate of smacking kids (which I would never do btw), so would never criticise you for your choices. And, in general, when I see people hitting dogs they do it stupidly, indiscriminately and, of course, I don't gree with this either.

I'm afraid I do disagree with the first paragraph. Dogs do lash out at other dogs - I see this in parks all the time. Jack spent his formative years in a flat with three very young children. He learnt to chase cats and never socialised with other dogs. He hates other dogs. He never attacks them but tells them to piss off until they do. I'm sure he was never hit (when I smacked him over the kitten, he didn't have a clue what had happened, poor thing - it's not something I like to do, even remotely) but clearly he had already developed a desire for his private space - I wonder if he snarled at the kids and that's why he was given away?

Flatbread, of course I check my dogs' teeth and groom them. I'm not sure why you are accusing me of neglecting my dogs?!

Dog 'fights' are common, I've had enough of them and been around enough of them to know that. Injurous dog fights or bites are not common. Dog fights are usually ritualistic and very, very noisy but don't often result in injuries.

We have the dog we have. I won't rehome him because I don't agree with rehoming due to inconvenience and because of his 'issues' he'd almost certainly be PTS if we didn't have him. He's wonderful and hopefully one day I'll be able to do competitive obedience or agility with him. He'll never bite anyone, becaus ehe is managed in such a way it can't happen. It's stressful, but we all love him, including the DC, who he is as trustworthy around as any dog could be.

Red, I am not accusing you of neglect! I don't know you at all...

I was just wondering about that research on dogs getting aggressive when owners take something out of their mouth. I can understand if a stranger got bitten, but an owner should be able to touch their dog everywhere and take things out of the dogs mouth, body (ticks), paws, bum (yuk, but necessary) without getting bitten.

So, if handling the mouth area per se is not the issue, the research was essentially saying that a third of dogs are allowed to resource guard within their own homes, and will turn aggressive if the owner tries to correct it?

Look, I don't care about most of the stuff spouted on the doghouse threads about training. But this one is key, and the advice often given here is dangerous. Please do not let a dog resource guard inside the family. It it growls and snarls when you get close to its food, do not ignore. Resolve the situation immediately, or the aggressiveness will show in other ways (in OP's case with the car issue).

This airy-fairy stuff about letting the dog have its own space and control over its own food is dangerous. It is not how a dog's mind works, do not juxtapose our female sensibilities upon a dog. In my experience, let the dog know right there and then, when the first instance of growling happens,that you control the resources. Nip it in the bud or else it will grow and manifest in other ways.

This thread does really worry and scare me. I know it is a public forum and I know you will get a difference of opinion. What is so terrifying is the dangerous and misguided advice that is given out.

It is not a matter of people training in different ways. If this debate was about children the advice would be illegal and would be reported to social services but apparently it is fine to punish and harm dogs. Well actually it isn't! I can walk away but I am so concerned that others will read this and try out some of the ridiculous dangerous methods eg pinning the dog to the floor, hitting the dog, making it so scared it cowers under the bed.

All I can say to anyone reading this thread or any of some of the posters who promote this outdated method of training is to read with caution and look at alternatives. All good successful trainers use positive training method and it is the way to go, please look into this type of training and not be encouraged to damage your relationship with your dogs by using outdated cruel ineffective training methods.

Flatbread can I ask how you know how a dogs mind works? The advice you give shows that you have no training, or qualifications of working with dogs at all.

I agree Herbertjane.

Lol, Hebert, you would love to think my dogs are so how mistreated, because it suits your blinkered approach. Take a look at my profile and pictures, what you see are happy, content, affectionate and adorable dogs.

My neighbour's dog has adopted us as his family..there are loads of families in the village. He chose us because he loves to hang out with us and has somehow decided in his mind (irritating as it is) that we are his pack family. So keep your snide comments to yourself, thank you. Please do tell us about your lovely pack of seven dogs who sing kumbaya together while stuffing themselves with treats

There is nothing modern or outdated about using common sense in bringing up dogs. Theories are fads, and come and go out of fashion. There is no substitute for common sense, being attuned to your canine family members and tailoring behaviour based on their personality.

Lol, In your world, mum dog would be reported to SS because she bites puppy to correct him, and so does neighbour's dog. And puppy is scared of them, but not us, he runs to jump into our arms and sleeps on my lap often.

Herbertjane, the less I say about what I think about your understanding of dogs (or anything else) the better. I would probably get banned if I gave my opinion of you and your previous incarnation of snoopy and someone less before that with M, cannot remember the username.

Flat you misunderstood about that research. It didn't say that dogs are 'allowed' to resource guard. It found that when owners try to forcibly remove things from the dog, many of them get an aggressive response.

Taking things away from the dog will only teach it to be defensive. Your advice about what an owner should do is dangerous.

I don't know who you think is imposing 'female sensibilities' on dogs. The article I linked to was by a psychology professor who has written many books on dogs, and the research he cited was published in a peer-reviewed academic journal.

There is no need to be so personal and bitchy. (Although a cornered animal does bite back[umm] Can you answer the question about how you now a how a dogs mind works? Then other readers can make up their own mind about which method is the most appropriate to follow.

Um...actually no. Most modern schools of thought on parenting advocate a mixture of appropriate "boundary setting" (not hitting or shouting...think "time outs" and removal of privileges) and positive reinforcement. Everyone on this thread is clearly very invested in their dogs and has acknowledged that positive reinforcement is the way to go most of the time. That's just common sense.

Herbert your style of writing and advice is awfully familiar .

I think there's a tendency to get hysterical on these threads because some people enjoy keeping large, powerful dogs with a genetic propensity toward aggressiveness in their homes with their families. That's a whole different ball game. If I was staring down a resource guarding staffy or pit-bull terrier, I'd do pretty much anything to guide myself and my family to safety and would advise others to do the same.

I am not bitchy Hebert, you are, making snide comments. That is the modus operandi of some people in the doghouse to bully others. Oh, you don't agree with me, I will make a snide comment about your dog...frankly, it is just childish and I have decided to call it out whenever it happens, so people cannot hide from their tactics.

I know how my dog's mind works, and can often anticipate their next actions from their body language. What exactly do you want to know?

Red, it is forcible only if the dog doesn't know to give it up...? My pup tried it and was aggressive, hence the grrr when dh tried to take the bone away. It was sorted within a few seconds. Never happened again, and we are talking about a very food driven pup. So what exactly is the issue here...the dog got aggressive, it was corrected and now dog does not get aggressive about bones or any other item we take from its mouth or paws.

And taking things away from a dog will not teach it to be defensive. What nonsense. I give things to my dogs and take things from my dogs, it is just not an issue. Talk about creating drama where none should exist.

Think you are spot on with Herbert's true identity, Flatbread. Bullying is apparently the tactic of choice with this particular poster. I've mentioned it before but, strangely, it keeps happening.

The other day we went swimming with the dogs and the puppy was so excited and proud over something. On closer inspection, he was holding an empty beer bottle that was broken with some jagged edges. Guess some picnickers didn't clear up after themselves. Took it out of his mouth pronto. If he had bitten down on the bottle or tried to resist, his mouth might have been cut badly.

Very glad that he knows that his human mum is the boss and that all resistance is futile

Muddy, was in two minds about calling it out, but glad that I did.

I am usually very laid back about parenting styles and dogs, just would love to have a good natter here without it turning into a bunfight.

Exactly. It should be a friendly and welcoming place for everyone who loves dogs, even if their approaches differ (disregarding cruelty or neglect, obviously).

Muddydogs, I'm not sure who you think Herbert is, but of you're implying it's Val, it's not.

Some people (and organisations such as Dogs Trust and the RSPCA, amongst others) do view some of the 'training' methods suggested as cruel and a welfare issue. They are also risky to humans, regardless of breed.

Flatbread, I presume your post addressed to me was a general rant rather than aimed at me. Am not hysterical and was sharing my experiences. I don't stuff my dogs with treats nor fear them. My dogs would let the children walk them, take their food or wait with a relative good grace whilst I trim round their genitalia.

They are however massive, they have come from the more random end of rescuing and have been variously aggressive to people, dogs and have resource guarded too. Physical dominance would be impossible and dangerous, I have trained them all paying attention to professionals who rehabilitate rescue dogs, work with RSPCA etc and it has worked. It is important that I do what works, some of the dogs have come to me after people have tried to 'Caesar' them, this hadn't worked.

Not sure if muddy's refs to pits and staffs was in relation to my post, these aren't my breeds incidentally but it's not a hysterical over reaction to consider what works most safely. I consider this with my mini dog too, the safest is the most effective way with the least stress for all parties.

I think many dogs are very easy going and will respond to all sorts, I do what professionals tell me works most safely, effectively and humanely. I presume you have had this fight on this board before but I really don't think what is repeated here about positive reinforcement is controversial or a mums net special, it's all I have met from beaviourists and rescue orgs in my years of dog ownership.

Oh and lebfg glad I wasn't patronising, maybe not! Your old dogs sounded lovely, I have one I suspect is better at childcare than me but dog incidents in the home are so often bed or food related.

My children feed the dogs etc but my boisterous beggars have in their toddlerdom been very capable of doing sudden and overly random things to eating or sleeping dogs. actually dh grew up with the most gorgeous perfect dog, he dived onto it for a cuddle and play (as normal) and was bitten...it was very ill and in bed feeling awful.

No, not Val. I know of her but she was a bit before my time on MN.

Bath, the hysterical response on mumsnet is the kind which midori has posted above. Implying that correcting a dog in a way which causes a dog no pain is a welfare issue, making a mockery of dogs who are actually abused.

Everyone agrees that positive reinforcement is very important, but the point is that there is also a need for correction, especially with regard to resource guarding behaviour.

I read a lot on dog behaviour and other related issues because I find it interesting. It is the same with anything else really, I read books on relationships and human psychology, but at the end of the day use my own judgement on my family and what works for us.

The point of these forums is to share experiences, not get into a bunfight! People can share all kinds of different ways of bringing up children and how to deal with any problems, but in the doghouse it seems only one way is the right way for all dogs in all situations. Everything else is demonised as being pack theory or Cesar Milan's torture chamber. There is no middle path, apparently. It is an insane, blinkered approach!

Hmm to be fair mums net and bunfights are pretty synonymous and you have chucked a fair few custard pies in your posts!

Your way is a middle way to you, mine is to me...am no dog liberal extremist by the standards of owners I know. I do know I have never needed to use correction though ... Bet I wouldn't have with your dogs either:)

Am sure your opinions have come through clearly, midori's post is accurate though there is a consensus about the kindest best training among the main welfare orgs. That's not the same as anyone saying you are a crap owner or are in the same class as the people who burnt and battered my boy. Am quite sure we all have happy snoring dogs right now

Yes, we all have different philosophies and while it is fine to discuss, I honestly don't see why people get fanatic about things.

Cuddles, play and praise are dished out liberally and I look at each of my dogs and tailor my training based on what works for that particular dog.

For me and my dogs, corrections are no bad thing. It is teaching them boundaries and helps them feel secure. They are happy, engaging dogs and i think it is because they are not stressed about anything...they understand their boundaries and that we control the resources. It relaxes them.

Of course it depends on the nature of your dogs. And also what you do with them. It the owner feeds dogs kibble, has them on leash most of the time and keep them in a crate and takes them out to 'train' them to dance and perform tricks for you, then maybe treats for all issues works, given the limited exposure these dogs have.

In our case the dogs get butter, meat and bones as a matter of course in their normal meals, are out off leash pretty much all the time and are never crated as they absolutely love their freedom to be out sniffing around for rabbits and rolling in deer poo in the land.

My girl dog is my gardening helper, she digs holes for me when I ask her to, so I can plant stuff. Never had an issue with them tearing up my garden or eating a plant or running off the land. They know their boundaries and are happy and relaxed

Since we give our dogs a lot of freedom, we expect a lot of good behaviour and use a wide range of training to get that. It all comes down to common sense, doing right by your dogs and not being afraid of them.