Having a dog isn't fun anymore

[SocialButterfly]

I am after a bit of advice. We have a collie x lab who is approx 8 years old. We got him 3 years ago from a small rescue. He knows some commands sit, paw etc and is generally well behaved. However he hates other dogs, when we first got him, he would tolerate them..just. Now if one even walks past the window he goes mad, barking for ages even after they have gone. We have to muzzle him on walks now after a few near misses. I feel nervous taking him out ( I'm sure he pick up on this). He spends most of his time at home sitting looking out the window, I have used frosting on the windows it's possible and we have blinds up but I can't sit in darkness all day. He barks at people, especially dogs and when my dh comes home he barks and bark for ages. If the children make a noise he barks, if they sing he howls. I'm finding he he's driving me mad and I take no pleasure in owning him. What can I do to try and make it better for me and him - he obviously isn't very happy

oh no - poor you. And poor dog I'm sure someone will be along soon.

could you take some advice from a dog behaviourist about his issues? My dog is not very friendly with other dogs when she's on a lead but fine when she's off, does your dog get a good off lead run every day?

Thanks guys. Yes we have a field at the end of our road where I let him off the lead, just putting him back on if we see another dog. If I left him off lead he would be likley to attack. The last incident my dh opened our front door without checking and he flew out and attacked a westie. We got a letter from the council about that one so that's why we muzzle him when out -and check before we open the front door!! On lead he is ok as long as the other dog doesn't approach but as soon as he sees a dog his hackles come up.

collies and labs need a lot of exercise - keeping him indoors all day will not be improving things. And your anxiety will be making him more prone to barking as he may perceive a threat where there is none - so he is being very protective of you.

Id look at
a) increasing the amount of exercise he gets - both physical and mental. Collies are very intelligent animals. - maybe work with him on agility training - initially at home, but later involving other dogs.

b) getting a dog trainer/behaviourist to specifically help with the barking

Are behaviourists expensive?

He has the run of a big garden, just to clarify I don't keep him inside all day, he has the run of the house and garden, he chooses to sit looking out the window.

how long a walk does he get? I think an intelligent breed like a collie needs a lot of stimulation and wlaking different places is much better than running in the garden or even a field that they go to everyday.

He always seems depressed if I walk him on lead locally, he won't wee or poo which is why I take him in the field and let him off.

It sounds like he is protecting his pack. I would suggest that you show him that it is not his job. Next time he barks at your window, gently but very strongly, hold him to the floor and tell him off. It will show him that it is not his position as he is not top of the pack. Keep this up. It will be hard work but he should soon learn that you are top dog. It may sound odd that he is trying to re- establish his place. If you can show him that he is just one of the pack he can relax and you can all have fun. Also try distracting him when things are at the window. With my dog she Would bark constantly when the door bell went. I had a friend come and ring it all morning and I told her off if she barked. I only opened the door when she was good.
BTW I am not a dog trainer, but the owner of a very large dog ( 8 stone) so I knew I had to be able to control her and keep her place in the pack.
Good luck.

Really esme sounds a bit cesar Milan to me? I'm not sure I'm up for pinning my dog to the ground.

can you not do one walk quite long walk onlead in different places and one run about in the field??

Hold him to the floor and tell him off???? OP, please ignore Esme.

Yes I could try that dita

I would not recommend pinning a dog to the floor, it's a good way to get bitten yourself.

Ideally you need a good trainer/behaviourist to see the dog's behaviour and give you advice. Things that might help:

• more exercise and general stimulation such as general training.

• distraction. Is it possible to distract him, might be easier to do right before he starts barking, with a very yummy treat (liver, cheese, etc.) or with a squeeky toy (some dogs prefer those to food)? Then keep him with his back to the window and keep rewarding him for being quiet. If you can't get the timing right, get a friend to help you by walking a dog past outside on a specific time so that you are already prepared. If he absolutely won't be distracted a sudden noise may do the job, e.g. droping a can full of pebbles on the floor, then as soon as the dog looks at you reward him for not barking. A lot of this is in the timing so it's worth having someone show you how to do it.

• crate training. Is he crate trained? If not it might be worth introducing him to the crate as a safe place he can retreat to. You can't leave him in there all day long, but you could use it to manage times of hightened excitement - do find out about introducing a crate properly though, it is not a punishment, it is a safe place for the dog.

• to reduce anxiety try a DAP difuser/collar or similar. Some people report good results with calcium supplements (Equifeast do a doggie supplement I have been hearing very good things about), and overall reconsidering his diet is always a good idea.

• outside with other dogs try distraction again to keep his attention on you, or try running past other dogs to minimise contact time, or place yourself between your dog and the other dog.

Jesus christ don't pin to the fucking floor. How will scaring a dog witless cure it's fear!?! That is the most irresponsible advice I have ever heard on MN and a sure fire of getting OP bitten and the dog PTS.

A collie needs much more stimulation that walking alone. You could try contacting Wiccaways for advise. They might know some specialist behaviourists in your area. They are very busy so don't give up if you don't hear back from the immediately.

A distraction techinque in the meantime, as the poster above reccomended, might help. Teach the dog 'look at me' at home and as soon as you spot anothre dog give the commands 'sit' and 'look at me' and then either treat the dog or play his favourite game while the other dog is walking past. This will help associate other dogs passing with something good.

Behaviourists prices vary from lace to place. Round here (NE) you are looking at about £60 for two to three one to one sessions with ongoing phone and email support. Look for a trainer who is registered with these people and run away from anyone who mention dominance theory or Ceaser Millan esque techniques. Ideally you want a trainer who has worked a lot with Collies before.

You should also look into specialist training such as sheep dog training or agility to keep the dog's mind busy. A collie with no job will find his own job.

Good luck op. Don't give up. This can be fixed.

Yes, do disregard Esme's suggestion to pin your dog to the floor. What utter bollocks that is. If you were entertaining yourself watching telly and someone came and threw you to the floor and pinned you there, would you instantly know that watching TV was unacceptable and displeasing to them? Or would it just confuse you and make you more likely to punch that person in the face the next time they approached you while you were minding your own business?

It does sound as if your dog is under-stimulated and has found his own entertainment in barking at the world going by. 'Chasing' people away (he barks, they disappear from view so in his mind it's job done) is rewarding to him. Sounds like he has carried this behaviour into the outside world which is making him reactive to other dogs. As Dooin has suggested, you need to find another way to occupy him which he finds equally rewarding and, in your position, I'd seek the assistance of someone experienced with the Collie mindset.

I apologise that I've offended. It's a Cesar Milan thing that can work and was not meant to sound like a bad owner. It most definitely is not meant to scare your dog.
Good luck.

Thanks all, I have taken everything on board, I'm going to try more walks and more variety on the walks and more training and simulations at home. If that doesn't work then I'll look in to a behaviourist, moneys a bit tight at the moment so I'm going to try the free stuff first! Thanks for all your help, I'm sure I'll be back for reassurance again though.

Have a look at some clicker training stuff online too. Karen Pryor is good. You might find it helps you feel differently about him (and it's fun for you both).

If he's insured, some insurance policies will cover behaviourists' fees, but make sure you don't go to one who's still using the outdated 'dominance' approach.

Carol Price's 'Understanding the Border Collie' is a very useful book, and Sonderman's 'Playtime for Dogs' has loads of ideas for mental stimulation. We have a window-shouter too, but distraction with Kongs/chewies/puzzle toys makes a huge difference.

Are there any working collies in your area? If so speak to their trainer, they may be able to give you some very helpful collie specific advice and help.

Op had similiar problems with my dog. Without causing offence you may find YOU are the problem, as I found I was the problem.

You say you are nervous? I used to be the same. I spent the full walk thinking "shit shit shit" The dog picked up on this and I (without meaning to) made his nervous aggression worse.

I took a step back and let my brother (much calmer, less fretty personality) walk him. Change was quick. My Partner now takes control of any situations and calms me down. The dog is like another dog! He still does snarl at other dogs as he has been attacked but he does not bolt after them, nor does he chase people/bikes. I have much better command of him now I feel calmer knowing he is not going to act wrongly.

Mine is a border collie springer cross and I find he is VERY good at picking up any negative feeling from me, however as he is a dog he misreads me. So when I see someone and I get nervous because of the dogs reaction, the dog just sees person, senses my nerves and puts two and two together. A dog behavioralist explained this to me and it does make sense in my setting so perhaps this may be useful to you.

He does bark out the window too often. I say thank you, come here and point to my feet. This direction seems to work. My tone is neutral not shouting or sounding annoyed. I do this because again If I'm screaming at him, he may think I am making noise at the "threat" and join in!

Mine is happiest with a old blanket that he likes to carry around and he has a bone that he also likes to carry around. He gets half a hour off lead run every day (his back end is dodgy and can't take much more) with a hour or two run on the beach at weekends. We play with his balls and rope toys in the house and he sleeps alot (lazy dog)

I would also second agility. At the club I attend we have several similar collies who are gradually improving with other dogs by being around them and 'working'. Billy arrived at our club 14 weeks ago and really couldn't bear any other dogs, however as he loves the working of agility he is learning to ignore the other dogs whilst he waits his turn.
You have a dog Einstein here so they really need mental and physical work to satisfy them.

Dogs do pick up on pretty much everything we do or think - and a lot of work that trainers/behaviourists do seems to be training owners, not the dogs.

Certainly, all trainers I have been to end up training me more than the dog. As my favourite one says ' the bloody dog KNOWS how to do things, it's you that don't know how to get them to do it'. She's very right.

Unfortunately, Esme's advice is very bad. She is obviously happy with it and meant well, but really don't try any pack based, Ceasar Milan bollocks. It is cruel and will likely make any issues much worse.

Look at the ADPT website - even just one session will make a difference to your confidence and that in turn will make less stress feed from you to your dog.

Just a differing view here! Collies and collie crosses as you know are fantastic busy highly alert dogs. They are constantly looking, listening and thinking.

I know the saying a good dog is a tired dog but sometimes this may not be the way to go. A collie when out and about will be bombarded with things to worry about, have to herd, have to sort out, have to understand.

Turig Rugaas has done a study on dogs activities and has a lot to say about exercise overstimulating dogs. http://www.canis.no/rugaas/ website here. She talks about the need to allow dogs to chill and have time to relax and then they often become calmer.

interesting article here on the same idea

Of course all dogs need to be exercised but at the moment agility may not be the way to go. A quiet walk on lead may actually be more relaxing and calming for an anxious dog than hours of ball chasing etc.

I would certainly work on rewarding calm behaviour. So waiting for a down and clicking and treating that. I would also up clicker training as this is a calm tiring activity but not likely to overstimulate the dog activity.

Can he have an area where he can feel very safe, away from all stimulation, eg quiet maybe not over lit etc.

Also have you tried the Look dog approach, this works brilliantly with clever reactive dogs. He looks at a dog you click and treat (whatever the reaction) very soon he will look at a dog and then look back to you immediately for the treat. You will have to work on the correct distance if you are too close then you just need to increase the distance between you and the dog. There are other posts on here about it.

Be prepared that he may never be a totally sociable calm dog but you should get to the stage where it is quiet at home, and you can manage any situation out and about. I do totally understand how tiring it is to have a reactive dog and until you have lived with one people can not begin to understand. However a lot of his behaviour is because he needs to quard and protect you so indirectly comes from his love for his family.

Have you said what he is fed on - this can certainly help as well.