Tuna and sardines for pups

[Flatbread]

Hiya, as some of you probably remember from the puppy saga in a previous thread, our dog has had nine pups. They are now a little over three weeks old.

We wanted to start them on semi-solids. Tried oatmeal with goats milk, with no success. Bread, egg yolk and goats milk with some success. Chicken mashed, but they only kinda liked it. And finally the breakthrough today of tuna pate thinned with goats milk, which they loved!

I was wondering of I could make a pate of sardines. Mum dog loves it, but not sure if it is too strong for pups and also about any possible bones. Before I make the effort, wanted to see if any of you had tried feeding sardines to pups?

Thanks.

I hand feed a small ball (golf ball size) of raw, defrosted chicken mince twice a day, for a couple of days and then move onto 2 balls on a sauce and stand 2 pups there for them to eat it.

That's the advice I was given by a breeder I admire greatly and it works a treat.

And from about day 4 of weaning, start to mix in a little soaked puppy kibble and keep the consistency a bit chewy but mostly lickable. Keep it at that for a week to 10 days.

Thanks daisy. Do you moisten it in any way? When I gave the pups minced chicken they didn't fully understand how to eat it as it was dryish. I think they like to lap up their food, as they are just transitioning from mum's milk to normal food. They haven't figured out how to chew yet.

Ah, maybe the difference is that I am giving them cooked chicken vs. raw...it must be drier cooked. I am vegetarian, and not that keen to handle raw meat, though. I wonder if I can just moisten cooked chicken with something, seemed a bit stringy from what I could see.

Raw is best for the puppies - cooked is just too rubbery. And not cooked enough opens a whole can of worms.

Hand feed it - wear some latex gloves if you feel funny about it - one puppy at a time. It's a solid food that doesn't need chewing, so perfect to begin to teach them how to chew.

When you start adding a good quality puppy food, it'll need blending with a processor of some sort to make it a sort of lockable/chewable mush.

Aim to slowly increase from 2 to 4 meals a day by about 5 weeks old, gradually phasing out the chicken and increasing texture until by about 7 weeks they're on whole puppy kibble moistened with a bit of boiling water.

Also from about 5 weeks, offer some warm puppy milk (formula called Nutrolac is what I've been recommended and seems perfect) after one or two meals a day just to top up anyone who didn't quite manage to scoff enough food.

I've not had to deviate from this which is exactly as it was recommended it me by someone else. It gives the puppies the very best we can manage and also gives Mum a fighting chance too!

Mum should be on puppy food at the moment - quite a lot of it. The amount and frequency depends on the number of pups she's nursing.

Also the pups need worming every 2 weeks, but you probably already know that. If not, ask your vet which wormer they recommend. I use Panacur.

Thanks, Daisy. I'll get some gloves. I am no good at cooking meat and just buy the freshly cooked rotisserie chicken for mum and was trying that for the pups.

I am paranoid, I guess, about samonela from raw meats. I never really worry about bacteria and veggie food, although i guess it is possible to get ill with veggies. With mouldy veggies i just chop the black bits and no worries. I am also very blase about mouldy bread and reusing cooked rice. Am remarkably healthy and don't think i've ever had the flu or any illness really, in the last decade or so.

I'll get the raw mince for the pups, it is just for a few weeks anyway. Mum is on her normal diet (but five times as much) of cooked chicken, fish, eggs, bones and duck fat with a few veggies like carrots and beans. She gets some dog food as a supplement and half a litre of goats milk a day and an occasional pasta with meatballs. Will cut back on the goats milk when the pups are older.

I am not a fan of dog food as such. And a diet of normal food has been fine for my dog. She has very strong bones and is healthy. I want to start the pups on real food, but it will be up to their adopted families on what they eat later on...

Most pet shops - I know Pets at Home does - have it prepared in tubes in their freezer section. It's pretty easy to deal with that way.

I haven't a clue about raw or BARF feeding puppies for their entire diet. I am happier feeding something I KNOW has got the right nutrition in for very fast growing pups. There is so much growing going on in such a short time, I don't dare run the risk of varying something I know works. Also, I would really struggle if a puppy owner came back to me in 5 or 6 years time with a physical problem with one of my puppies which I thought could have been caused by lack of good nutrition while weaning.

The same goes for Nutrolac which is a good quality puppy milk forumla. I don't know whether goats milk is a good alternative - haven't a clue!

I suppose it's each to their own in the end; but my breeding mentor has 25 years experience and as I only have a few litters under my belt and lots of reading, I pretty much take their advice as gospel .

I would wean them onto good quality kibble and nothing else. Partly because new owners are likely to feed kibble and partly because the risk of errors resulting in poor growth or problems is much lower. It's not great for puppies to have too many changes to their diet either. I certainly wouldn't expect them to eat anything other than meat/meaty bones if I were intending to avoid kibble.

You can either soak kibble in warm water to make a kind of gruel, thickening it and then making it eventually just dampened as the puppies get older. Usually by 6-8 weeks large breed puppies can eat it dry. Or, you can soak the kibble and add nutrilac or similar 'puppy formula' powder to the mix. It's now known that this isn't necessary though. (adding milk)

Kibble is obviously processed, no matter how good quality it is, but some are much better quality than others and have high meat or fish content and little or no cereals. If you're really not keen on kibble you could try something like nature diet?

Slightly off topic, but if they haven't already been, the puppies will need working now, especially if the bitch wasn't worked from day 42 of her pregnancy. (not sure if anyone would have told you about that)

Wormed, not worked, chuffing phone...

Midori, I was wondering about the work thing, and was hoping there was a way to get the pups to help around the house Right now they use all their energy to play, escape from their box and then promptly fall asleep on the floor!

Mum was dewormed in end January, as we were coming back to UK then and had the pups in end of Feb. Our vet in France recommended that we deworm the puppies at 6 weeks, 8 weeks, 12 weeks and then every month after for the first 6 months. I know that it is popular to do it at 2, 4 and 6 weeks. I guess there are just different ways of doing things.

Flatbread, Mum should have been wormed daily from day 42 of her pregnancy for roundworms in order to reduce the worm burden in the newborn puppies. If this is not done it's even more important the puppies are wormed properly. Panacur or Drontal suspension are the brands you would get from your vet in the UK and these suggest worming either from 2 weeks, bi-weekly until 12 weeks, then monthly until 6 months (drontal) and Panacur is a 3 day course at 3 weeks and then again at 5 and 7 weeks IIRC, but I use Drontal. The bitch needs to be wormed at the same time as the puppies, otherwise you may just get cross contamination.

Worm damage can be extremely serious and it is vital that this is something you get right for the future of your pups. Personally, I would want a second opinion from a different vet, especially as the bitch wasn't wormed properly during her pregnancy.

I called up the vet again today and pressed her on the deworming issue. She said if I was worried, I should give mum a deworming tablet and that it would pass through her milk to the puppies. But to wait till six weeks before directly deworming the puppies.

She is a very experienced vet, and treats all kinds of animals ranging from cows to rabbits. I guess she has seen it all, so as to speak, and could be a bit laid-back as compared to city vets who deal with household pets, in the main...? I totally trust her, she is very good at what she does and has a fantastic reputation. (My dog loves her too and looks forward to the vet visits as if they are a treat outing!)

I've never heard that advice or anything like it about a bitch and puppies. Not from our very rural vets, my old slightly more urban vet or from any breeder I know.

Odd.

I agree it is very odd advice and not something that fits with the manufacturers recommendations, so even odder that they would suggest this. Did they give their reasoning?

She asked about mum and the pups first, how they are doing, what they are eating, if they are playing etc.

She thought they are doing really well, and it is not necessary to give deworming before they are six weeks old. If I did want to do something, I could give mum a deworming tablet now, but not the babes.

Thinking back, I think the dogs trust as well had asked me to bring in the pups at 6 weeks for a checkup and deworming and at eight weeks for their first vaccination.

I did a google search now and it seems there is a variety of experiences on when people had their pups dewormed, so I guess there is no agreement among the veterinarian community on this.

I would be wary to just follow manufacturer guidelines, after all, it is in their interest to drum up demand for doses of their product. Much prefer to go with my vet's advice, she could make money by prescribing products, but she is very down to earth and we have a good natter, my dog is on her best behaviour to impress, and often she doesn't charge me anything if it is just a check-up or a small thing like flea or worming care.

Flatbread, your puppies will have been born with a worm burden, not least because you did not correctly worm your bitch during her pregnancy. Either your vet is bonkers or you're talking out of your arse I'm afraid.

You do not know how to look after a litter of puppies and are a prime example of why people should not be having accidental litters of puppies left, right and centre.

Using google to decide whether your puppies should be wormed... FFS....

Whatever, midori.

I would rather believe my vet than someone who breeds puppies to sell them.

I wrote here to find out what natural foods I can feed my puppies.

not interested in the righteous rants of someone in the puppy trade

Flatbread

You clearly have no experience at all with breeding puppies and have asked for help. People have taken time to try and help and have offered advice based on their EXPERIENCE.

You have been so fucking rude in response.

Your puppies will be riddled with worms. They pass through the placenta from Mum to pup and need to be got rid of.

Your vet is the only one I have heard make such a recommendations, I am afraid. That alone would make me question her.

No, you're right, you're not interested because you think you are right and everyone else must be wrong and are more interested in being right than the welfare of your bitch and your puppies it seems.

I just hope that your puppies don't suffer because of both your ignorance and arrogance. However, it seems they already are.

Thanks for your concern, Midori. The pups are doing great. It seems who ever meets them comes back and asks if they are for sale. The answer is always no. This is because they are a part of our family, not a part of a business model.

I am not interested in promoting a business in dogs, and neither is my vet. She was happy to learn I had decided to feed my dog natural food when she was a pup and gave me great advice on food combinations, instead of pushing the kibble for sale in her office.

Same with deworming, she is not pushing the latest fad, but actually thinking about what is best for my dog and the pups. Frankly, I think you are offensive and patronising. If you wanted to help, you would answer my questions on sardines and natural feed, instead of pushing your own agenda that so called 'responsible' breeders who are in the business of selling dogs are legitimate, while loving families who have pups are somehow suspect.

She is not doing the best for the puppies.

At all.

Or for any human who happens to come in contact with your dogs.

A roundworm infestation can be fatal.

A heavy roundworm burden will cause breathing problems, coughing and then pneumonia. Abdominal pain, diarrhoea, a pot belly and retarded growth, leading to a complete blockage of the digestive system.

In addition, the faeces will carry a heavy burden of roundworm eggs. Toxocara canis. The eggs are sticky and will travel from animal to human. They can be carried on the skin, the fur, on bedding, in the grass, anywhere. They will be ingested by humans and the eggs will travel to the gut where they will hatch. They don't turn into adult roundworms in a human, they stay as larvae and travel around the body and become embedded in body tissues. Sometimes they settle in delicate areas like the retina where they cause significant, permanent visual impairment.

Your vet is in it for the money. She has to be. They have costs that need to be covered; equipment to be paid for and wages to pay.

A puppy buyer - which is exactly who will go to the rehoming centre you've chosen and hand over cash for one of your puppies, even though it will probably be called a donation - shouldn't accept a puppy which hasn't been wormed at least twice before it's 8 weeks old.

You are in no position to be sanctimonious about breeding puppies and money tbh. You're just handing them over to someone else to sell for you. And taking advantage of their resources at the same time.

Did you read what I wrote? They will be wormed at six weeks and eight weeks, so twice before they are adopted. Then 12 weeks and every month till they are six months old. I have a good vet, I don't see why I need to justify her advice to you.

So you think in the next two weeks my pups will go blind and die a horrible death because they were dewormed at six weeks Honestly, you guys are bonkers!

If you both are examples of responsible breeders, I am very glad that I got a rescue pup!

(btw, yes, the rescue will take a donation for the pups, but use the money towards the costs of older dogs. If you are so concerned about dog welfare, why don't you donate the money you get from the puppy trade to a dog rescue?)

Flatbread, I can only see one poster who is 'bonkers'. I'll give you a clue - it's none of the posters that are actually giving you good advice based on years of experience.

Good Luck. You will need it