The Fall of Cesar Milan

[minimuu]

At last the message is getting through

link here

It is all good and well to want everyone to use reward-based training. I think this has come of more and more people having dogs as pets. With fewer people needing their dogs as working companions, more and more things are expected of dogs, and less and less time is spent watching and understanding their behaviour. As Flatbread said, her dog hates the Silent Ignore. To us humans, it is an inconvenience to be ignored. To a dog, it might be the end of the world.
I am wondering if we really know how to be kind to our animals, and where cruelty starts?
I hope I am not unkind to my animals. I really hope I am not. Since I am not a dog, there are things I might do which the dog might think are horrible, but to me they are normal. Dogs are not simple creatures. Single cell organisms are.

There are very few people on this thread actually condoning CM's methods. Dog training does seem to be going through a pet dog fashion faddish stage. The professionals I speak to tell me that research is ongoing, and the truth is that nobody really knows.

Although it should be grindingly obvious that beating an animal into submission is never going to be a good idea.

Flatbread yep I alone have the answer to everything (note sarcastic tone!)

No of course not. It is just that I have studied animal behaviour and dog training to Phd level so this is one topic I do know about. All my comments have strong scientific backing and not just anecdotal evidence.

Re punishment in humans that is another topic but does it work? Why are more people in prison than before? Why is the crime rate going up is punishment is a deterrent. But that is not a topic I have studied at depth so can not give scientific answers to that.

SilentCastatrophe there are many studies which show how dogs behave and learn so I can rest assured that I am not cruel to my dogs. I DO know what is unkind to them and how they will learn.

Fad umm. I am sure that the more we learn the more we will be able to fine tune the training of today to be more effective. At least I am up to reviewing, researching and continuing to be prepared to take on the improvements in training methods. Unlike many who seem unable to move from the dark ages of aversive based training

Punishment is -sort of- used in positive training, just in a non hands on, none cruel way. Going back to my dog pulling me out of the door. He pulls - we don't move. The door is open, he can see the park i.e. his reward, but he can't get to it. The reward has been removed until the correct behaviour is shown. Or I could smack him when he pulls but a) he'll bite me. b) unless I am really quick and smack at the exact moment he starts pulling he has no idea why he has been smacked. It could be because the door is open for all he knows, hence why positive training is more likely to work for Jo Public, it's harder to get it wrong and c) Why would I want to hurt him when I can train him more successfully by removing/giving rewards?

Absolutely. Adequate and stimulating - yes. Often breed-specific - yes.

But IMO Cesar will point to a dog who has been run off its legs on a treadmill and explain that all its behavioural issues are solved due to the exercise. Well, sort of... but it's calm and quiet because it's exhausted, not because it's cured.

I'm a huge believer in plentiful, appropriate exercise - all I'm saying is, the answer to ALL problems isn't ALWAYS "more exercise".

My dogs get plenty - but if I went to Cesar for help, no doubt he'd say they don't get enough. He'd have me being dragged, wobbling, on roller skates and spending half a day up a mountain and after all that I'm sure my dog WOULD be calmer. But the next day the problem would still be there.

What a clumsy, unneccessary and unpleasant way to go about it.

There are instances when a dog is in danger, like a scrap that is becoming a fight. How would you train say, a 2 year old aloof dog who took no notice of you? Both these instances might be said to call for quite unkind solutions, which may well not work. So.. what would you do?

'a 2 year old aloof dog who took no notice of you?' - You've met the Devil Dog then? I keep trying until I find something he is interested in. Turned out to be tennis balls and tug games after trying many, many foods. Cheese works later on to reinforce commands he has learnt with his 'big rewards'.

Scraps would depend on the situation and how long the fighting dog is staying with us and how bad the fight is. I generally have an all round command of "ENOUGH" which translates in my dogs language to stop, look at me, wait for command and possible treat. This only works because they have been positively trained from the start.

I pull on the lead to get Jas to sit by the kerb sometimes if he isn't paying attention (seen a cat/dog/squirrel/beard across the road, for example). Not hard, but I sort of jiggle the lead. Is that wrong? It gets his attention, he sits and he gets a 'good boy!' and praise.

"Enough" - yeah, I use that one. Usually when they're having a noisy play-fight in the middle of the carpet and tufts of hair are flying about when I've just hoovered

If a very light lead-jiggle is enough to get his attention in the face of cat/dog/squirrel/beard distraction, then it should be very easy to teach a verbal cue ("Watch Me" for instance) to get the same result :)

Good point. I tend to use the lead jiggle when we're on the school run and it's noisy (children/cars/dogs etc). I sometimes think he hasn't heard the 'sit' command because of all the other noise. Of course, he could just be mugging me off

Sorry to be banging on. As I have said, I think we all try to be kind to our animals. Of course there will be people who are willfully cruel but hopefully they're in the minority. In my experience with horses, people were often keen to rush out and get the latest horse control gadget from the tack shop. Most riders don't use spurs, basically because they don't ride well enough and don't need the precision. Spurs are not intended to stab the horse in the sides. I do wonder a bit if a lot of training issues could be remedied by a shift in attitude.
We also need to remember that the behaviour we find hurtful is not always the same as what another animal finds hurtful.
I do remember chatting with you, Dooin about DevilDog! Oh yes!