The Fall of Cesar Milan

[minimuu]

At last the message is getting through

link here

Copied from the link: "He says to handle your dog with ?calm-assertive energy,? giving it plenty of exercise, clear boundaries and rules, and lots of affection when the time is right. Your dog is a dog, not a human, and is to be treated like one, Millan says."

Shame he couldn't have just stuck with that bit. I like his emphasis on adequate exercise, the idea of dogs needing a 'job', often a breed specific one, the placement of blame firmly on the owner and not the dog and the use of calm socialised dogs/packs to rehabilitate unsocialised dogs.

I hate the dominance crap, the flooding, the use of unnecessary force. Apart from very very rare exceptions you could achieve everything he achieves with positive reinforcement, no force, no pain, it just wouldn't look nearly as good for TV.

I can't even object 100% to the use of prong and choke collars - I believe they both have their place, correctly used (i.e not by Joe Public, without significant guidance) by the right person on the right dog. I am aware that this and my complete lack of outrage at dogs being kept outside/working dogs/hunting etc. will probably have me hounded from the thread with a toasty arse.

Cesar Milan uses prong collars? I don't even know what they are, but they sound awful. I had no idea, I've only seen him do basic obedience training/calming down nervous dogs etc. Nothing controversial. What a shame he uses fear/pain stuff in amongst all the good.

Right...

Once upon a time a lot of very clever (although WRONG!) people thought the world was flat. It's not, so I'm told. They learnt better. Apply this to dominance theory- we were told by experts this was the way to go, so the dog world followed suit. Maybe some parts worked for some, in a way.

Now, scientists, behavioural experts, and the like, have shown us all a better way. I have faith in this method! In much the same way, my lovely old grandma used to make us treacle sarnies and hot tea when we had a cold. Now I take cold and flu tabs and drink loads of water. Modern medicine had shown it works, no?

So- I'm going to respect the opinion of modern training advocates- that positive, respectful, treat-laden-clicker-bearing training IS THE BEST WAY!

Times change, we gain knowledge through experience, IMO it's stupid to ignore it!

WRT to CM being involved in animal welfare/actively against puppy farms/advocate of spay programs, that's grand old news. That he has some redeeming qaulitys, I mean. Because otherwise he's just an abuser of innocent animals. I'm sure he doesn't think he is, and seems to love his dogs. BUT I'm sure Hitler thought he was full of good ideas, too.

Oh, and the poster who asked if its not tiring carrying treats around?? I'd rather carry a pocket full of hot dogs around permanently than have to instill fear into an animal.

I can't recall an episode where he advocated the use of a prong collar, but I do recall one where the owner had used that to no avail and the advice was to use a different technique.

I do recall one where he advocated the use of a collar that gave a brief, very mild, buzz to the dog's neck. CM demonstrated that on the owner's bare arm to show the strength of the signal (bearing in mind that there's a significant difference between a human's upper arm and a dog's neck). That was a situation where the dog's behaviour put it at extreme risk because he was chasing very large agricultural machinery operated by the owner who couldn't be in two places at the same time. That signal wasn't painful to the dog, but was a very necessary warning to stay away.

so its either 'instill fear' or tirelessly get treat after treat to distract your dog because you cant get your dog to pay attention without waving food in their face? i dont distract my dog with treats and i dont instill fear. just like i dont make my kids fearful of me and i certainly wouldnt wave a doughnut infront of them to make them listen, tough im sure theyd love that. dogs just have to be put in their place, they might test you some times but dont make a big deal out of it and move on, every days different. some methods work for some and some dont. so why the big debate?

I don't have a dog, but I'm wondering what my cat would say if I tried the treat /clicker thing on her.

I deteste the man...I have a 4 yr old gsd and never once have I had to hurt her or pin her to the ground to get her to behave !

Had a labrador before her from 8 weeks til he was 11 yrs and again trained with kind and humane methods.

Inthepotty - treacle has known healing properties; tea has antioxidant properties. The combination has worked for very many generations and I suspect your grandma knew a thing or three. And didn't have travel to the nearest shop and pay for the privilege.

As for your "Hitler" comment, you're not so up-to-date on internet convention: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law.

Why on earth do dogs need to be put in their place?? If you bring them up right and treat them well, it isn't an issue !

because some times dogs like to test boundaries. quick calm correction (put them in their place) is alls needed usually

Not if you treat them well they don't..and what do you call a quick calm correction?? I am interested.

Oh Misslala you are just showing your ignorance. Read Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson, Don't shoot the dog Karen Pryor, In defence of the Dog John Bradshaw to name but a few

Dogs do not learn from fear.

Dogs learn from two main principles. Give something to get more of a behavior you want. Take something away to stop a behavior you don't like.

Positive Reinforcement (+R): If you want your dog to repeat a behavior more frequently, reward that behavior in some way.

Negative Punishment (-P): If you want your dog to repeat a behavior less frequently, remove any reward or perceived award for the behavior.

Think of positive and negative in the addition/subtraction sense. The counterparts to +R and -P are negative reinforcement (take away an aversive - something painful or unpleasant to the dog - as a reward) and positive punishment (present the dog with something painful or unpleasant for doing something you do not like).

"Positive training" uses positive reinforcement and negative punishment exclusively. Aversive corrections and positive reinforcements has been proven to be the least effective way to teach

Positive trainers have successfully trained all sorts of competition dogs, from obedience to agility to tracking. In fact, clicker trained dogs are usually ready for the obedience ring and agility competitions much faster than dogs trained with aversives corrections.

There is no debate about Cesar Milan it has been proven his training methods are cruel. He has been banned in many European countries and his tour of this country was cut short. All reputable agencies have dismissed his methods. RSPCA, Dogs Trust, APDT, ADPC etc. There is no argument to be had that the old dominant method of training works. It has been dismissed by hundreds of scientific studies. The case is closed.

With regard to your comment on treats, I do not treat my dog all the time although no problem to me, I would rather do that than kick dogs, like Cesar or strangle them or hit them etc.

I teach the a new behaviour and mark it with a click and treat - the dog learns the new behaviour - job done easy peasy!

presumably, 'correction' as in a firm 'no', or 'leave it' or somesuch is appropriate - as it is for children. But to me, shouting at a dog or a child (I've done both, in times of stress, it has to be said!) is neither effective nor appropriate 'correction'.

Smacking, nasty collars, stepping on paws, etc are all counter productive and mean, to my mind.

Boundaries are good for everyone, but the way the are enforced can be threatening/dominant or respectful/firm.

Or am I more than I thought?!

Elibean I am just hoping she doesn't mean the pinning the dog down tactic or similar x Shouting I can cope with but there is no reason to hurt a dog ime x

Would you kick you dog like this

I rest my case m'lud

I just know I am right!!!!

You really need to go right back to how dogs have become domesticated to get to the bottom of all this.

Why have dogs become domesticated and not wolves?

Dogs worked out that humans had a lot to offer them. Right back centuries ago dogs worked out that by being near man, they got better food, warmth etc. Humans realised that dogs were willing to work for them and wanted to work for them for reward - in this case food etc.

Dogs have always wanted to work with people otherwise they would still be wild. As dogs are willing to work for us and always want to please us the easy way to train them is to praise reward them for the good behaviour. Dogs clearly understand and then are willing to repeat the behaviour.

dogs were domesticated from wolves

you think dogs & wolves existed in the wild alongside each other?

Once upon a time they did. The wolves that dogs originate from are now extinct so we can't really compare a dog with the wolves we are familiar with.

Our youngest dog took no notice of us whatsoever when he first came to live with us. It has been a long haul to train him (still ongoing). I have wondered if Mr Milan fits into his training anywhere. Not knowingly at any rate. I don't use treats, but I do use toys and lots of stroking and affection.

Ponders?

Oooh, I love the utube clip of the woman training Podee....very impressed.

The how dogs came from wolves thing is very neatly covered in In Defence of Dogs by John Bradshaw if anyone is interested. I get this a lot, given that my dogs look a tiny weeny bit like wolves (but not at all really, if you've ever seen a wolf).

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Why have dogs become domesticated and not wolves?

"It is...likely...that primitive humans raided wolf dens, captured pups and then raised the ones that showed promise of being tamed."

Puppy moms do not train their young ones through treats, but more through physical signals. For my dog, a firm no or a gentle smack on the bum mean the same thing. I try to talk less and do more with gestures and she rarely, rarely ignores me. She looks to see what I am doing, she knows the gesture for no, a hard no ( slightly raised two fingers with which she used to get a bum smack), a smile when she has done something good, left and right for which way to turn, slightly raised palm to stop etc.

I don't understand the only positive reinforcement thing. Do you not have a naughty step for children? Well why not an equivalent for your puppy?

My puppy gets positive reinforcement when she has been good and punished when she has been bad. So, when she sits when guests come, she gets a treat or a reward of caresses. But if she jumps repeatedly she gets locked in the boiler room, or tied to a tree.